Ian's story: torn about my sexuality

Caitlin (0:00): When sexual longing not only risks alienation from friends and family, but is also against the law, what was the journey which resolved Ian's inner conflict? Have you ever felt torn, experienced that inner struggle of clashing needs, yearnings and beliefs, not a fight with others, but a fight within yourself? It's confusing, it's painful, it's inner conflict. I'm Caitlin. I'm Susan. We are coaches with different areas of expertise and a shared passion for helping everyone understand and navigate torn feelings. Welcome to our podcast, where we share stories, resources and hope around all things inner conflict. In the following episode, we dive into a real life story of inner conflict from our research interviews. To maintain confidentiality, we've removed identifying details, and the story is narrated by an actor in

Ian (1:34): like my sexuality, what I what I enjoyed doing, was like a magnet drawing me back, but at the same time, I knew I shouldn't be doing what I was doing, so I kind of tried to ignore, you know, try to fight that side of myself.

Caitlin (2:01): In today's episode, we follow one man's journey to reconcile his own sexual preferences with the sexual preferences approved by the society he was living in, and at the time he was living in. Ian's realization that he was gay happened many decades ago in the UK, where that was actively illegal and an imprisonable offense. So while he couldn't deny what he felt at first, Ian found it difficult to admit it, let alone be even open about who he was. We are going to discover how did he navigate this challenging inner conflict in a world that really punished his sexual longings?

Ian (2:40): I my inner conflict, in my internal fight, my sexuality was with me from very young as I was growing up and being a certain time in a certain place or a certain background, all of that stuff stays with you,

Susan (3:06): and I didn't

Ian (3:08): suddenly come to a resolution. I didn't suddenly stop being torn

Caitlin (3:17): before we dive in. I just want to acknowledge upfront that Susan and I are going to be commenting on this story, and we are two heterosexual coaches providing commentary on a gay man's story of his relationship to his sexual identity. We obviously have our limitations, but we also have skill in terms of the inner conflict around his identity and the lifelong struggle that he experienced. So I hope we will bring that to bear with as much sensitivity as we can.

Susan (3:51): Let me echo that I had the privilege of doing this interview with Ian, and I work a lot in my coaching practice, which focuses on relationships. I work a lot with gay couples, so it's a real privilege to be commenting on this interview,

Caitlin (4:08): and just from those early words from Ian Susan, this was clearly a different time and much more challenging sort of social expectations that he was up against, absolutely.

Susan (4:23): We're talking about the late 50s, early 60s, when Ian was born and growing up in a time when homosexuality was illegal in much of Great Britain and so had to be kept hidden. I mean, we know that even nowadays, there is some stigma around being gay, but in those days, it was an imprisonable offense with hard labor in some parts of the United Kingdom.

Caitlin (4:49): That's shocking. Yeah, let's go back to Ian and hear a little bit more about how this began in his childhood.

Ian (4:59): I. As a kid, I didn't realize I was gay until probably I was a teenager, you know, I had a major crush on my best male friend, a couple of my best male friends, actually, when I was in my early teens, but at that time, I was also still having girlfriends that I just didn't know. What I did know that my mind wanted to go further than my body was allowed to. I wanted to go in a different direction from where where I was expected and allowed to go. I'd always have those internal conversations with myself, and every now and again, it'd be like I'm enjoying that experience. I'm liking that, and I mustn't like that. I'm not going to do that anymore. Maybe for a couple of weeks I didn't do it, but very soon, you know, it was almost like a magnet join me back to doing it.

Caitlin (6:19): In these clips, I can feel that separation between a physical and and really embodied urge and and a conditioned, socialized mind fighting with one another like really, and the pain that he must have felt

Susan (6:41): teenage years are difficult. Can be difficult at the best of times, but feeling what Ian felt and the yearnings he had but set against a background of shame and and shame that was completely supported by society, and fear, fear of what would happen, along with confusion, and I would say they were relevant to many teenage experiences, but in Ian's case, with With an extra sharp underpinning of suffering,

Caitlin (7:21): I think about how natural and normal it is to be experimental and to be trying on different identities, different parts of yourself during the teenage years, right developmentally, that is that's kind of Your job as a teenager to start experimenting and playing with who you are and pulling away from your your family and determining your own identity and trying to find your tribe, right at the same time you're trying to fit in and trying to conform to expectations.

Susan (8:00): I mean, one thing I noticed particularly is the way Ian describes his internal conversations as he calls them. And of course, this is a sign of all inner conflict where we're talking to ourselves, different parts of us are saying, well, you know, I feel like this, but should I feel like this? I can't even begin to imagine how those inner conflicts mixed with the external pressure. So not only was he having internal conversations, but he was overhearing comments or reading on the media comments, which added to the pain he was going through.

Caitlin (8:39): Let's return to Ian.

Ian (8:41): You know, obviously, you think about these things a lot, and you think back on things a lot as well. So they kind of, they churn away, you know, they just bubble away. I do understand coming from a religious family and all of that guilt and expectations about,

Ian (9:12): you know, getting married and having kids, and also it was about feeling different. I remember my mother commenting

Ian (9:31): like, if I tripped over, pick your feet up. She'd say, pick your feet up. There's an awareness of people noticing fear of people pointing at you, having fingers pointing at you, on a deep level about approval and other people's opinion. And on top of all that. Yeah, being gay was still illegal when I was growing up, men were being sent to prison for doing what I wanted to do.

Susan (10:12): We get more evidence here of the pressures that Ian is under. And it also becomes clear, we know from our interviews, the interviews we've done with all sorts of people, that there are some conflicts that are lifelong. They're not triggered by a single event. And this is what's happening for Ian. He has a lifelong conflict, or one that begins very, very early, and that is created by what is happening around him. There's an internal struggle to be who he is and to honor his own sexuality, however confusing that is for him. But there's also the lifelong awareness that society may well change, and in fact, happily, it did, but that there will always be within him, this fear of being different, and this fear of being and he expresses it so beautifully pointed at. And of course, the reaction in society can be even stronger than being pointed at.

Caitlin (11:14): Yeah, I always find this, this moment where you pinpoint a couple of memories from early childhood that are attached to a lifelong conflict. Really interesting, you know. And here it's such a seemingly, I don't know, small thing, pick your feet up, and yet it weighs on him so hugely as a signifier of the world is watching, you know, just as you walk down the street, pick your feet up. And he internalized that. He internalized that little comment, that little moment, maybe he had a many, many times in his childhood, and that's that's built into his conflict now,

Susan (12:01): I find it sad that and we'll learn more about Ian's relationship with his family later on. I find it sad that at that point, he had nobody to turn to. There was nobody he could talk about this with the religion in the family also probably prevented him from talking to those around him, maybe at school and in his church, this lad who is struggling with his identity and his sexual identity, but at that point in time, in that situation, in that country, he has nobody to turn to at all.

Caitlin (12:36): Let's now see, how did he move from this complex intertwining of family expectations, social, cultural, religious expectations that he had internalized. How did he move from that into a phase of of actually acknowledging and moving towards his sexual identity?

Ian (12:59): What changed? What brought the resolution? But it didn't happen overnight. It took a while, and it took a lot of life events. It was kickstarted by going to drama school, because, you know, there were people I was seeing every day who were gay people in my life who were gay, and then being confronted by them, them saying, We know. We know, because this guy in the year above said he saw you at that club, you know, but I still wasn't admitting it still not to everyone, but to anyone. And then I left home and got my own place, and suddenly went, Okay, maybe it's to do with independence, but it made me go, Is this who I am? I remember coming to a point where I went, this is the way I am, and then I came out to friends.

Caitlin (14:17): It's powerful. The image that comes to my mind is, is actually him opening a door to this identity that he has from very early on in his adolescence, but then very quickly, shutting it over and over again, shutting it as he goes through this passage. It's like, okay, this is going to take a long time, but I'm going to open the door, and I'm going to appear through the crack, and I'm going to leave it open, this crack, you know, and and I certainly hope, as we, as we hear the rest of the story, that the door continues to open and the let the light comes in,

Susan (14:56): and I'm getting a picture of the door opening. I. And him being beckoned through by his friends, but also pushed through by his friends. And I'm not saying that challenging one's inner conflicts in such a thriving way, or having them challenged is always beneficial. But for Ian, it clearly was, you know, there was a push pull. There were friends saying, Come on. Come on. Who are you? Come on. As well as friends saying, well, we can see it. We're affirming it. We're appreciating it, we're acknowledging it. Painfully for him, I'm sure, at the time, but helpfully, in the end, his internal conflict was reflected and challenged by people who were his friends, people who he trusted. And there's such a big lesson there about how we can be helped by our friends to solve our inner conflict, our friends or our therapists or whoever, but also we can help other people who are going through such kind of conflicts. We can validate them.

Caitlin (16:07): I love that. I love that, and maybe just drill into a tiny bit more. One way where we might do that is to give people the out, but to, you know, tell them what you see inside them, and and to do it with such kindness and such love that they can reach for it if they want, and they can back away from it if they're not ready. But I love the idea of of a pull with kindness and with respect and care that says I see this in you, and it's okay. How beautiful. How beautiful he had these friends at this time.

Susan (16:42): I think there's something there too around how shifting context can help. Ian went to drama school, and then he moved out from home and lived on his own. And both of those things allowed him to shift his beliefs as well as literally, the place he was living, and I think that can help. I'm not suggesting that in order to solve an inner conflict, we have to move house, but I do think the original situation is telling us we're wrong to have a conflict, and then we move to a place, literal or metaphorical, where the people around us are telling us that it's okay and and are supporting us in going the way we want to go, going the way that is right for us. It's hugely, hugely important.

Caitlin (17:31): Yeah, he's finding the right context and and his people right? And he's doing that because he's also following his his passion, and you know, it pulls other parts of himself into that direction, too. But I think we can't underestimate the influence of those people that we have close around us, actually, right? They really do shape who we are, allowing ourselves to express and be, or who we aren't. He also talks about someone saying that he was seen at these clubs, and clearly that's a good sign. He's experimenting with his identity. He's allowing an exploration there, and this choice to actually move a few steps down this road towards coming out and more fully and openly acknowledging his identity is clearly in process here.

Susan (18:26): There's there's something interesting here around the steps we have to take in order to resolve a conflict, and one of them that we, from our range of interviews, have identified is the idea of experimentation and hypothesis. In other words, what happens if I try this? What happens if I go to a club and see what it feels like to be with other people who are like me? That's a step towards the resolution. It's a step on the journey that we can all take in our own context and in our own inner conflict

Caitlin (19:03): at the broader spectrum, then, I guess it's our recommendation that if you're in that phase of the journey through inner conflict where you begin to think, how might I experiment with the options or the directions that I have in front of me? The idea is, what's the sort of smallest unit that you can step forward along those different potential paths, just to experience it and to see what it's like to move in a particular direction.

Susan (19:32): Just one last point about that, I found it very moving. Win Ian says it made me go, Is this who I am? And this, this question? Okay, it may or may not come into play. We're not in a conflict. It's a daily, seemingly small one, but very often asking that, who am I question and. Will help us resolve the conflict, because once we know who we are, once we realize who we are in the context of this conflict, that often simply makes the direction we need to take very, very clear. And we have, we almost have no choice if we ask the Who am I question about a conflict, and we get to clear answer from ourselves. Oh, I'm

Caitlin (20:23): so glad you said that, Susan, and it just shows us that this is an identity conflict. It is a lifelong who am I and who am I allowing myself to be and become beautiful. Let's hear some more from Ian.

Ian (20:42): So the next thing that happened was I had two proper gay relationships, one of them, we actually ended up living together for five, six years. I was still torn. I still hadn't told my parents they were a different generation, different attitudes. I think my mum knew I was at a family wedding, and my aunt said, so you'll be next. And my mother said, Oh, no, he's he's married to the theater. So I kind of inferred from that, that she knew, but we never discussed it. In fact, I never did tell them. I think I regret that there's still inner conflict there, for sure,

Susan (21:47): going back to the original interview I held with Ian, just as a framing, by the time he was living with somebody, being gay was no longer a crime, the law had been repealed, so he did feel a lot freer, but I find it interesting and sad that No, he wasn't able to tell his parents, and in fact, he he never did,

Caitlin (22:14): and that he was allowing himself to Live in his identity in one sphere of his life, and and then that he had to conceal that part of his identity, or felt he had to conceal that part of his identity in another extremely important part of his life.

Susan (22:34): I guess I'm getting from from what you've just said, that he was open in one part of his life. He was hidden and conflicted. The story about his mother, who will never know whether she knew or not, but if she did, she was finding ways to cope with that conflict within Ian and within herself. She's joining him. She's standing alongside him in No, you haven't said anything, so we're not going to say anything. But she must have been conflicted too. That was never resolved.

Caitlin (23:08): Yeah, there was a lot potentially. I mean, we can never know, right? But in that clip, you can feel the weight of what is between the lines and what they're reading into each other, painful, painful part of being in relationship, saying you sort of see and acknowledge without really acknowledging properly and fully. I wanted to ask you, Susan, about your experience in counseling couples. And this doesn't have to apply to gay couples only, but that it strikes me is this hugely positive piece in being in relationship and being validated and becoming more and more secure in this part of his identity, while at the same time concealing that in other spheres. And I think we do this in relationships often where in the relationship, we can validate and show and affirm a part of our identity, but then we show up as someone else, and that can also create tensions within the relationship. You know, how come you show me this side of you and that you you cannot go out and be that in the public? Just wondered whether you can comment about that dynamic in relationships and in couples, and the inner conflict, but also the interpersonal conflict

Susan (24:29): that's going on there. I think there's a really interesting point here that we asked the question earlier, who am I? And if in a relationship, we're very clear about who we are, but we are not stating that to the outside world. It can, it can almost seem within the relationship that this is wrong, you know, why aren't you saying who you are? And then it can be seen as a betrayal. And that's that's really, really sad.

Caitlin (24:59): Yeah, I wonder. Whether couples who are able to acknowledge and work through that also can invoke the positive pull that we talked about earlier as well, that sense of I know this side of you and in the world will want to know it too, you know. And how can we be generous friends and partners and do that, that clothing with kindness, with love.

Susan (25:28): You know, yes indeed, indeed,

Caitlin (25:31): it's it's unfolding. It's taking time, isn't it? And and it's not easy. This is not simple for him. Let's see how his journey carries on.

Ian (25:41): And then I moved to London, and that move changed my life, obviously, because then I could be who I wanted to be. You know, it was, it was like starting over again from from every angle. It was so so much easier to be gay in London, I got a job with a gay lead theater company. So I was working with a gay theater company with gay actors touring to venues with gay audiences, and I still remember meeting someone who said that a play I was involved in, changed his life, and I became political about the gay movement. Went on marches, went went to pride. My first Pride, went on marches against section 28 so that was a big time. You know, it was a big time. Really, you feel part of something.

Caitlin (26:46): I love this segment here, really, I can hear him recount this pivotal time where he steps up and steps forward and and is proud of himself, and he's doing it with with confidence, and it's so beautiful.

Susan (27:07): One of the things I notice is as he gains confidence, he feels more able to protest. And it's so true in an inner conflict, the hidden emotion can often be, well, I'm really sad about this, I'm really frightened about this, but the hidden emotion is and I'm angry about this, and suddenly the anger comes through and on the the energy and the force. It's just lovely to see.

Caitlin (27:35): I imagine it was a healing, you know, a healing time and a healing action to be able to bring that emotion forward and to propel it towards good cause with his people, with purpose, with integrity.

Susan (27:52): Yes, just to add it, that was a very strange time in the United Kingdom, because we had clause 28 where it was how can I put this? Saying that gay was fine, was not allowed in teaching situations, in school situations, it was still legal, but you weren't allowed to proselytize, and that's what Ian is talking about that not that it is forbidden to be gay, but it is forbidden to tell other people to be gay. And again, it's a Who am I question coming through. You know this is wrong. I need to protest against this.

Caitlin (28:34): But he's with his tribe. He knows his purpose. He's gained enough confidence and enough clarity in himself, that he's fighting, and that's so beautiful. Let's see. Let's see where it goes next.

Ian (28:49): Now, you know, I've got, I've got my group, my family. I don't need to hide anything from anyone. It's amazing. Am I still torn? No, but still now, if I walk down the street and hold my partner's hand,

Ian (29:12): I'm paying attention. I'll check out before I do that kind of thing,

Ian (29:19): I'm checking the pleasure of holding his hand against the threat from outside. I don't do it if I don't feel safe. I mean, if we're in Soho, it's fine. If it's not fine, then we just don't do it.

Ian (29:40): It's far better than it used to be. But this isn't just about people pointing at us. It's also about getting kicked

Susan (29:55): every time I read those words or hear those words, and when I. I was interviewing it, and I felt a flinch. You know, this is not your mum's saying, don't get pointed at. This is about getting

Caitlin (30:09): it kicking and a real, tangible threat to safety, physical, mental, emotional safety, and that part of him that is protecting him, still alive and well and present in his showing up in the world, in his relationship, they seem to have, you know, a kind of code between them, potentially, at least, that's what I'm imagining. You know, we're scanning, we're looking. Can we? Can we be fully here? Can we let that protection guard down and

Susan (30:46): having to be on alert the whole time to ask the Who am I question from the interviews we've done, and also from your work and mine, Caitlin and James's work, it's a question that comes up again and again and again. Who am I and how much am I going to show that? And what do I do when showing it means that I'm under threat, means that I must be frightened.

Caitlin (31:11): I think we have to acknowledge that for many people, their inner conflict and the part of them that remains even when they have worked through an inner conflict over many, many years and sort of come to a point of resolution. He clearly says, I'm not torn about this, but there is a part of me that is on alert. And I think there are many contexts in which people have reconciled with an inner conflict but still have this remaining protective part and it needs to be there. This is not incomplete. This protective part of him is doing a good job, given the context, given the society, it is not right that this is what he has to experience and keep alive in himself. But given the realities of the outside world, the harsh realities of the outside world, we need to recognize that keeping yourself safe is is part of this,

Susan (32:13): yes and and in fact, every inner conflict that we have is underpinned by a motivation to keep ourselves safe, even the trivial ones or the seemingly trivial ones. What shall I wear today? What statement will that make? Will I be safe when I do that? It's really important to remember that.

Caitlin (32:35): Let's hear where Ian is at right now. I think there's some really beautiful things coming up in his story.

Ian (32:45): I'm 67 now, and I've just last year, done a show two hander, a dance piece with words, with a colleague about gradually coming to terms and coming out. Simon's much younger than me, and the two stories, the younger self and the elder self, the generation apart, intertwined, juxtaposed, compared. It's a piece of social documentary as well as our personal stories. I decided very early on as we were developing the show that I wouldn't hold anything back. There were only three of us working on the show, and we trusted each other, and so I told stories I've never told anyone else, and they made the show. I kind of felt that I needed to share fully, and I ended up not actually having any any conflict about that, really. So I wasn't torn. I but I didn't suddenly come to a resolution. It's about settling, settling on, on who you are. Life. It swings like a pendulum, back and forth, you know, until it settles down, it slows as you get older. The pendulum slows to hangs level, aligned, true.

Caitlin (34:32): I mean, I love the poetic legacy, you know, full full gesture that this is, I mean, more than, more than gesture, the creative act, and declaration that this is that he creates a piece of art, and it's, it's really a final piece for him, isn't it a declaration that I have fully come to terms with this identity I'm proud.

Susan (35:00): And I just love Ian's phraseology. He had such a lovely way with words and then the image of a pendulum that over time you you become level, aligned and true. So, so lovely.

Caitlin (35:15): Yeah. And the lesson here, keep following your journey and allow it to keep unfolding, to keep settling, almost settling into your bones, into your body. I think there's something just so hopeful about about ending in this part of the story. And we're clearly at the end of the trajectory of his inner conflict. He's landed.

Susan (35:41): It's almost a second coming out. I'm sure there will be many more years of Ian performing, but this feels to me like a real peak for him, that he's truly gone public at this point.

Ian (36:02): What to say to anybody who's having an inner conflict about their sexuality, I'd say it's okay to be conflicted. Yes, if it's that bad, there are people who can help you with with that. But you know, a day at a time you may be conflicted, and that's okay. I waited a long time to stop being torn.

Susan (36:37): It's such an important message. I mean, we said earlier that this is a lifetime conflict, a lifetime in a conflict, and that sounds scary. Oh, you know, I haven't changed. I haven't made a difference, I haven't solved things. But Ian's such a marvelous example of change has continued to happen in his life, and what's happened is he's come to peace with the conflict. You know, he still walks down the street and judges whether it's safe to hold his partner's hand, but at the same time, he's okay with who he is, and so he can handle that. And there's nothing wrong with a lifetime conflict. It takes time, as he says, it takes time for us to develop. Yeah, he

Caitlin (37:25): really advocates for this. Allow your unfolding. Be compassionate with yourself. Be patient. It's okay, which is a huge message that we are trying to send out into the world with the torn project. Being torn is normal, natural. It's okay in all of its forms, whether it's small and trivial or if it's something that lives inside you every day, every week.

Susan (37:53): And yes, get help. Get support. As he says, there are people who can help you with that. But don't panic.

Caitlin (38:03): He has one last mic drop for us.

Ian (38:08): I want to tell people, be patient. Inner conflict can resolve itself eventually. You're torn now, but one day you won't be.

Caitlin (38:28): Ian's story may well have left you thinking about your own inner conflict, perhaps a lifelong inner conflict, or that of another that you know and are supporting. So if you're interested in knowing more, please refer to the show notes, where we not only offer you a transcript of the podcast, but also links to helpful resources on our website, thetornproject.com. Thank you for listening.