Paul's Story: Should I leave my marriage?

Caitlin (0:01): When Paul realized that he had to make a life changing decision, how did the memory of a childhood disappointment in a sweet shop help him decide what direction to take?

Caitlin (0:13): Have you ever felt torn, experienced that inner struggle of clashing needs, yearnings and beliefs, not a fight with others, but a fight within yourself. It's confusing, it's painful, it's inner conflict. I'm Caitlin.

Susan (0:33): I'm Susan.

James (0:36): I'm James.

Caitlin (0:36): We are coaches with different areas of expertise and a shared passion for helping everyone understand and navigate torn feelings. Welcome to our podcast where we share stories, resources and hope around all things inner conflict. In the following episode, we dive into a real life story of inner conflict from our research interviews. To maintain confidentiality, we've removed identifying details, and the story is narrated by an actor.

Paul (1:21): For years, I just pushed down the wanting. I was miserable and I was genuinely, like, really lonely. I just wanted a life that was that was totally different from the life I was living.

Caitlin (1:43): In today's episode, we're looking at the hard decision of whether to stay in a relationship or to leave in the year Paul and his wife had their 25th wedding anniversary, a sudden meeting made him realize that what he wanted from life was not what he was experiencing. What should he do with that realization?

Paul (2:05): The inner conflict I had was, should I stay in my marriage or not? I needed to think very hard about what to do.

Susan (2:21): I think this is really difficult, stay or go. It's a deep and a conflict for so many people in this case, In Paul's case, it should he stay in his marriage or not, and so many risks. Will society judge him? Will people take sides? Will leaving his marriage be what he wants to do? Yes, but is it what he's meant to do? It's really tricky.

Caitlin (2:50): Yes, it's that tricky thing of holding security and safety and long term connection and commitment while also yearning for novelty and discovery and interest and a lively connection.

James (3:10): It's also the question of an imagined future, I think. For lots of people over time, marriages become the known and regular and sometimes quite boring thing, and we want to get away from the known and regular. And then sometimes we meet someone, we want to move actively towards a new future of imagining.

Susan (3:39): Yes, and people change, and that liveliness can disappear, and there's always a question of whether you can get it back or not, and if you can't, particularly in Paul's situation, where he's he's coming up to a 25 year anniversary of his marriage. What do you do with that?

Paul (4:01): For many years of my marriage, you know, for a long time I was happy. I was happy. We have three sons, a lovely house, you know, we had a good life. But then I started to question what I was doing, you know, our marriage was okay, but it just wasn't right for me anymore. I did try. We both tried. We went to counselling. It was, you know, it was through that, that then I realized that my marriage was over. It was over. And the only question then was, was whether I should stay in it or leave. F years, I pushed down the wanting. And I was I was miserable. I was really, you know, lonely and and yet I was still, like, really conflicted. I just, I just wasn't sure what I wanted, so I stayed.

Caitlin (5:34): I can really feel the conflict in in Paul's voice here, and I want to know Susan from you as somebody spent so much of your career helping couples – how, how normal is this conflict?

Susan (5:52): I think a conflict happens perhaps 50 to 60% of the time. So it's certainly my experience. The couples who come to me, they've been struggling with it. You know, I often ask, how long is it since you've been disappointed in your partnership, in your marriage? And the answer is, usually over five years. They've been disappointed, and they've stuck with that for 5 - 6 - 7, maybe even longer. I'm not saying it happens to everybody, but it happens a lot more often than we think.

James (6:29): And when we talk about conflict in this context, we're talking about: there are two conflicts, of course. There is the potential for conflict between Paul and his wife, if you like, an overt interpersonal conflict. And the thing we're really interested in is Paul's experience of his inner conflict. So if we go on to talk about working on a relationship or getting counselling to work on a relationship, what we are interested in is what was going on inside Paul during this time, what was were his motivating thoughts and feelings.

Susan (7:23): I think one of the ways people get caught there is that they stay too much inside themselves. I think it's really important at that stage to go out and look for information. You know, maybe not talk to people about the disaster that is your marriage, but be looking for information, be looking for outside input, to help, to support in a conflict that gets both recognized and resolved.

Caitlin (7:55): I love that. It points to, how do you do something with all that is bubbling up inside and coming back to your first comment, many of the couples that you've seen have been discontent with their relationship for 5 - 6 - 7 years. So if this is a drawn-out inner conflict over a period of months or years, how is it that you're going to do something with it and gather information and engage with something helpful, rather than contain that within for months and years.

James (8:32): I was thinking exactly the same thing that I wanted to be with people who wanted similar things. It really wasn't so much about her and much more about him. I guess trying to regain some agency over his life and his relationships in a way that perhaps had been neglected in the previous years within the marriage.

Caitlin (9:08): Let's hear a little bit more from Paul.

Paul (9:13): So it was like a few years ago, and ironically, it was just as we were coming up to a big anniversary, and I met someone I was really attracted to. I'll call her Amy. And it wasn't just that I wanted her body. I mean, I did want her body I mean, or just her mind. I mean, when I thought about it, when I was like, you know, fantasizing about it, I was thinking about more, more about the life we could create together, you know, which, which, which at the time, was so different from the life I was living. And. And, and the weird thing was, it wasn't only her that I thought about being with, but it was like, you know, people, other people who wanted similar things to what I wanted. And, you know, had similar values and goals in life, you know, like and the same sort of visions for the future. And I just didn't have that

Caitlin (10:22): I'd think this is a catalyst him meeting this other person. It's not necessarily about the other person, it's about what this other person represents to him. What do you guys hear in that,

Susan (10:38): I think, in a conflict so often around becoming aware of a different direction, we often see it as a choice or decisions to be made. But it's more complicated than that. One Direction Paul was going in was staying with his marriage, and then all of a sudden, Amy comes along, and his life in the world of the team he lives in comes along, and he sees that there's another direction he can take, and that always raises far more decisions, far more choices than simply a stay or go one. It brings up everything, questions, everything in your life.

Caitlin (11:20): It's interesting how we need some kind of embodied form in order to explore other options or to think about what is, what is missing.

James (11:36): It's very interesting. I hadn't thought of that, that there needs to be some kind of magnetic pull towards this is a real option. This is not just me idly thinking on a Sunday afternoon. Could things be better? Could things be different? That idea has to become material, and say, Here I am. This is what I look like. This is what you could have. And then I imagine that the pool becomes almost unbearably strong, and the decision is a thing that, oh, now this is really real, and I really have to make it. It's not just idle thought anymore,

Susan (12:24): but that's so true, and very often at that point, reality doesn't kick in. The reality of what would it mean to leave to face a disappointment in my family that I have left? There's an there's an idealization there that draws you on and then with more thought, Well, what do I do? And that's where the conflict is kicking in.

Caitlin (12:52): Yeah. I love this idea that some sort of idealization is necessary to overcome the inertia, or the reasons why you may choose not to make a change, whether it's Should I Stay or Should I Go, or should I move country or leave job, or something like we could abstract this to another scenario of inner conflict, but there has to be some kind of positively motivating idealization that allows you to see another future.

Susan (13:24): I love the idea that talking about Paul's story is going to cross over into other inner conflicts. And it's one of the things we found a lot in doing our research that the same themes and the same problems and the same resolutions keep coming up time and time again. It's It's inspirational and very reassuring that there is something happening here that we can track and understand and work on.

Caitlin (13:57): I want us to not sort of gloss over the social judgments of this specific one, too, right? In a way, this is a controversial podcast story to bring forward. Here's a midlife guy with a long marriage and children thinking about a new woman and a different life. There's a lot of social commentary that we could explore and the weight that he must feel around

Susan (14:31): that it's a bit of a classic, isn't it? Oh yes, we know what's happening. But interestingly, I'm not sure we do know what's happening, from what we've heard of Paul so far, there's always going to be a backstory and an understory. There isn't it.

James (14:49): I think we should find out about the backstory and the understory. That sounds too good.

Paul (14:56): So what I like realized, or to. Kind of like reflecting on the stuff was that actually this, this thing about wanting something different, had actually been kind of with me forever. I think it's like a cliche, but because of something that happened to me when I was, like, really, really young, so I was, I was in a sweet shop when with my mum and my sister. I mean, this must have been when I was about, I don't know, maybe three and and so we're there, and my mum's like, what sweets would you like? And my sister, she's a few years older than me, she just grabbed some, like, normal kind of, probably quite cheap sweets. Apparently, I chose and wanted, like, the most expensive ones in the shop. I don't know, I must have pointed at, like, a really expensive box of chocolates, or something like really expensive. And my mum, quite understandably, when you can't have those, they're too expensive, obviously. So I'm free, and of course, I kick off. I have a massive tantrum in the shop. I want those. I want those, and all of that and, and in my mum's words, because she's told this story a few times, she became like, really mortified, like she was mortified and ashamed and and embarrassed, and got really, like, freaking angry, got furious. And so she buys the sweets for my sister and and doesn't get me any, so I don't get anything. And then on the way home, it's storming off with me and my sister, and I'm trying to placate my mom, I'm like, saying sorry all the way back, all the way back. It's, yeah, it was, like, really horrible and, and obviously, looking back, obviously, I can see why my mom was upset she couldn't afford for the really expensive chocolate school, she couldn't and then I was bringing all of that like attention to her in the shop, but which I, you know, and but which must have been really hard for her. But I think the message that I got from that for me, I think was which I also think my mum has repeated to me, like loads of times over the years, and even as an adult, is you're always wanting the best, like you're always wanting the best, and sometimes you know what, You can't have the best.

Caitlin (17:19): What an understory my wantings aren't actually important or can't be met, so maybe I shouldn't bother

Susan (17:30): Yes, maybe, maybe I shouldn't even want and, and couldn't you give him a cuddle little three year old? Yeah, just see him now. Plus, well, I

James (17:41): know he's looking back at that with the experience and intelligence of a middle aged man, but I really feel just how hard it is for the three year old to navigate and negotiate and try to make better with his mum. Uh, um, it sounds like she's been deeply triggered by this, and this three year old is trying to make right? That's so difficult. And you can see how easily something like that will have an lasting impact. Oh, it makes me think of all the times as a parent that I've just ah been overwhelmed, who pops my lid, and the children have to bear that and and work out what rules they transgressed, what unspoken rules, and whether they're still safe, whether they're still loved, all of those things. And then it comes all the way down to the present, doesn't it? Am I loved and lovable? If I want things, maybe I shouldn't want things.

Caitlin (19:04): Yeah, it's a painful mismatch between a child's yearnings and a parent's in the moment, coping mechanisms and capability to see what might be underneath the child's wantings And what feels socially acceptable or possible for her in that moment. Right? This is starting from an interpersonal conflict where you have an adult who can see a social situation that she wants to play a certain role in I want to be an acceptable mother without a tantruming child in a sweet shop, and I'm going to do my best to get this under control and maybe be very strict about and a child who has no no. Actual framework for understanding what it is this conflict is even about. He said, What do I want? I want that thing. This child has no idea what expensive means, or what a cheap, reasonable suite would have been. And here we are with an inner conflict I don't know, 40 years down the line that gets traced back to this moment.

Susan (20:24): It always throws me when with a client, or indeed with friends, when we're talking this sort of thing through not everything is down to the past, but so much of it is, and if your first step to solving an inner conflict is understanding what on earth it's all about, it's always worth checking back to the past. You know, where did this come from? Where are the beliefs and the values I'm acting on now? Where do they come from? And is that still relevant? Now? It's, yeah, it's always, always worth thinking back to the past. I think,

Caitlin (21:06): yeah, I love the question, Where does this come from? And also, why is this important to me? Why am I getting so triggered in this There must be another why under the surface story of the people and the context and the specifics to the problem. But you know that trick of asking why or what's important five times, till you get to what's the deeper underlying piece

Susan (21:38): five times is that, is that what you do with your clients? I think that's lovely. Just keep asking the question, we can all do that, can't we? We can all keep asking the question, it's great.

James (21:49): I also think it takes quite a profound piece of work in this particular example to discover that there is this childhood story that's affecting this current story, because the current story is one that could very easily be explained in terms of, I've committed to a marriage. I'm father of children. I live in a society that values marriage and values long term relationships, and all of those external factors are, frankly enough to create a conflict within him. So to have the clear sight enough to say and where does this come from? There's a bit in me that's just about me to be able to find that, to look back and go, Oh, okay. There's also this strongly shaping event in my life, it requires really clear thinking and being able to say all of those other pressures are true, and I put them to one side to look at just me in isolation. I think that's a real skill there. I think that's very, very hard to do. That's certainly the kind of thing I'd go and get help with,

Caitlin (23:22): yeah, exactly, go and see a therapist around, right? Yeah. So dealing with that inner conflict and that individual story and its roots in the past with some support and help is one thing, and another thing would be bringing that individual conflict into the context of couples therapy or conversation that's facilitated with a third party for the couple. Susan, can you tell us a little bit more about how people might begin approaching that journey of couples counseling at a moment like this? What could that look like? I think it

Susan (24:01): usually starts with one person saying, Look, we can't cope with this on our own. And and then sometimes the challenge is to ask the other person if they'll join in that. And sometimes they won't. Sometimes they're going well, but No, there isn't a problem here. Or No, things are not that bad that we need counseling. So it's very delicate, and a lot of the couples who come to me, one of them is 100% eager, and the other one is absolutely not convinced. I also want to add that it may be that counseling isn't needed. I just want to be careful here not to be saying that everybody has to go to counseling. I think there's an awful lot we can do on our own. We can ask those internal questions that we've been talking about. But I also deeply believe that if one comes to. The end of the road on that, and when I stuck the couples counseling really helps and and one of the things couples who come to me often say is, please don't shout at us. And I go, I will never shout at you, because you're doing your best. You're turning up, you're doing what you need to do, not only to try and save your marriage if you want to, but also to try and solve this internal problem. Because by that time, of course, both of them are torn about what to do.

Caitlin (25:37): I have a lot of compassion for the way that his particular inner conflict is kind of arising in him, and the challenge of bringing that conversation into the marriage, right, I have, you know, effectively a crush, an attraction to somebody else. I have yet to act on it. However, it's pointing towards this, this yearning that this, this thing that is missing. And I've done a bit of thinking about what's actually underneath this. Why is this important? There's a, there is a, an underlying, innocent question that they could explore as a couple that has nothing to do with an affair or an attraction to another person, but that's the route to getting into the underlying question. Very tricky, very tricky, very tricky.

James (26:40): Yeah, by the way, Paul tells this story, it sounds as if the underlying question is a deeply personal 1am, I allowed what I want? And that's that's quite a different one to how is our marriage going, and how much responsibility for the success of the marriage lies on Paul not being allowed to have what he wants. And then this this event occurs, he meets this other woman, and that's when he becomes aware that, historically, he's not been allowed what he wants. And it's, it's, uh, for me, this is a sadness that, okay, you figured that out this story, and the effect of this childhood story in a way that makes it a question about, Do I leave the marriage and go off with this other person? And yet, that childhood story has been there the whole of your life and affected every decision you've made throughout your childhood, your teenagehood, your young adulthood into marriage, throughout 25 years of marriage and being a parent, and all of those opportunities to make a really good Marriage, perhaps to bring that awareness that you now have.

Caitlin (28:23): Yeah, there's an interesting piece here, which is maybe Paul's discovered that it's a complete non starter to go into conversation with his wife, because maybe part of the reflection that he's realized internally is I've not allowed the things that I want in my life. And actually, I didn't want this marriage to begin with. I didn't want, you know, I went in to this creation of a life and a partnership with this person with the framework I am not allowed to get the things that I want. And so just take what's in front of you, what's offered. Let's hear what comes next for Paul.

Paul (29:09): So like looking back and remembering the past, like reflecting on it, on that, I realized something. I realized that my this inner conflict. Thing was not whether I wanted to stay in my marriage or leave it the real conflict, the true conflict was between, you know, wanting and being afraid to want. You know, between wanting and and feeling I needed help back from having it. It had gone from my mum denying me to to me denying myself. So like the voices in my head, they're saying, you can't have what you want, having what you want is wrong. You know, like young you're not good enough to have what you want. You have to have what you don't want. So I. I pushed down the wanting. I just, like, pushed it down for time. And I guess I've been doing that, like, since the age of three, and realizing that, and and alongside that, realizing, like, what I was feeling was normal really helped. Helped a lot. It was that I started to see that what I was feeling was showing me what was important. Now, you know, at this stage of my life, and once I started to believe that it was okay for me to want class, that's when things started to become clearer.

Caitlin (30:46): So he's starting to connect the dots, yeah, and he realizes that his mother's denial has been internalized, and it's me saying I can't have what I want. I've been denying it. And in fact, that old narrative, that old inner monolog, has come into conflict with an updated adult monolog that says, hey, having what you want might be an interesting thing to explore.

Susan (31:20): I think there's something else happening there as well, which is he himself is not only realizing his truth, but He's forgiving himself for having a truth he sort of stepped into look. This is what I feel now as an adult, and it's okay, you know, I'm not bad, I'm not mad, I'm not evil. And I think if we can reach the point of looking back into a past, understand what's happening, and go, Yeah, you know, maybe I'm not such a bad person. After all, I think that's a huge way forward in resolving a conflict of stepping into Yeah, I have this conflict. What's it about? And I'm doing my best here, and I know this may go against all the social norms of you should stay in a partnership, but I think this is a journey that many of us take, and it's something that we need to know about, something we need to acknowledge and accept in ourselves, as well as understanding other people.

James (32:33): I think there's something very interesting about getting to a certain age in life, and perhaps realizing there's less time ahead of you than time past. And how's it going so far and taking stock, and it certainly helps to have an event that provokes that taking stock, like a wedding anniversary, like a bereavement, like jobs. But there comes a point where you stop and you say, I I've said it myself. I'm no longer the young man with my life spanning in front of me, I'm probably facing the shorter half now. How's it going? How has it been going, this track that I found myself on, how much of it was a track that I wanted to be on, and how much of it was created inadvertently, perhaps by the unwritten and unspoken rules that I absorbed as a child. And what can I do about that? I think it's a very common, very common inner conflict, and I think it's potentially, it's common enough that society says midlife crisis as a way of not allowing it. Don't rock that boat, because if you rock the boat, then we all rock the boat, and there's no boat left.

Caitlin (34:15): I like that. So it's like classic thing in adult development, right? Moving from a socialized, driven view of how to be and who you are to a kind of self authored way of how to be and who you are, right? And it's that may happen in midlife, it may happen earlier, it may happen never, but I think it's very common to feel that there is a way you should be and path you should follow, and that that comes into question at a certain point and goes, I don't actually like that. Should path. I want something different.

Susan (35:00): And tell you something I want to comment on, which is Paul reporting, or he calls the the voices in my head. Not all of us have voices in our head, and then we're not talking about voices from outside telling us what to do, but most of us have an inner monolog. I don't I don't want to call it an inner critic. I think people say with the inner critic, the voice inside your head may well not be a critic. It may be telling you something that is really important to listen to, or something that is supportive of you, or maybe telling you what you need to hear. And Paul's voices, which have been saying all his life that he can't have what he wants, all of a sudden he's listening to them. It's hugely important. It's really a huge part of understanding and then resolving any inner conflict.

Caitlin (36:06): Yes, he's listening to that older, historic voice that says, you can't have what you want. And he's made room for a newer voice that says, What if I can have what I want? And so these inner voices, or these inner parts of himself, are speaking from different perspectives and different angles, right? But what's really beautiful as his story unfolds is that he's beginning to make space and really explore with curious compassion what is underneath any and all of these voices, and beginning to understand that the one that said you can't have what you want, well, it made sense, given where it came from and what he had to do in response to his mom at a particular time in trying to appease and make make peace and make good and carry on as best as possible as a three year old, right? And there's a voice, a new voice, that enters later on in life. It says, What if we can explore what we want? And he's getting curious and excited and compassionate about that voice.

James (37:29): I want to backtrack a bit, Susan, you talked about an inner monolog, and I don't experience it that way, because it isn't in it for me, the it is a multiplicity of voices, for want of a better word. Many parts may come up, and one may come up just once I have something to say and never reappear. And others hang out with me for a long time, for many years. But just as there seems to be a little bit of a myth in society that we should be single minded, which we know not to be true, I also want to say that, at least in my case, there ain't no inner monolog. It's a it's a multi log. And sometimes they gather in the corner of the pub and chat with each other quite happily, and other times they ah, I get slightly more vocal and have good old fashioned arguments, and I sit watching wondering what the hell's going on inside.

Susan (38:49): I really want to agree with you. I didn't mean an inner monolog I mentioned in a dialog. I also want to add that a lot of my clients don't have that. And if you don't have it, it's not that there's something wrong. It's just that the way your mind works is different. But yeah, it's an inner dialog. There are, as you said, so many parts. I mean, Paul's shown us in what he said that there are the parts from the past, the parts from the present. There are voices telling him that he really wants to be with Amy, and there are voices telling him that no, he should stay where he is. So absolutely, totally agree, yes.

Caitlin (39:38): And there's a sort of a skillfulness at listening to and exploring those inner parts, whether they're showing up as voices or sensations in the body or any number of other ways that our inner worlds can be speaking to us. US and alerting to us that something is either not quite right or that something feels great. And do more of this, you know, our inner life is always talking to us. And there's also a point at which you don't just sit with the inner life, but you move to translating those insights into the outside world, and I want to hear now what Paul begins to explore around moving from those inner thoughts and feelings into how might I make changes and tangibly shift things in my life.

Paul (40:47): So, you know, looking at all of this and reflecting and realizing that it was okay to want didn't completely solve my conflict, obviously. I mean, I still have conflict between between all of the different parts of me wanting different things. But I think once I realized what was happening and and once I allowed myself to admit my wants, that's when I when I started to face reality, that that I did want things, that that my life just wasn't giving me and, and, and, of course, I'd been building up to this for, like, years, like, loads of years. And meeting Amy, well, that was the catalyst, you know, the the final bit of the puzzle, or, like, the final bit of gold on the scales that, like, tips the balance, you know, tips it over the edge and, and made it too obvious for me to to ignore, and I couldn't push it aside, that, you know, the way I was living was just simply not what I wanted. And the missing piece was that I shouldn't be ashamed of wanting, that it is okay to want and it's okay to ask for what I want. And there was another important realization that I realized that if I didn't go for what I wanted this time, I'd regret it for the rest of my life.

Caitlin (42:20): This is a powerful realization. If I didn't go for it this time, I'd regret it for the rest of my life. It sounds like this is a wake up call. This is a big moment.

James (42:33): How exciting and terrifying in equal measure.

Susan (42:36): Yeah, it could be meeting somebody. It could be, I don't know, losing your job, or for a lot of people, it's a loss, a bereavement, perhaps, or a pregnancy or and In Paul's case, it was a Wedding anniversary and meeting somebody Wake Up Calls, really important for inner conflict. It's not always that an inner conflict is resolved with a wake up call, but it happens a lot. Yeah, I think this is

Caitlin (43:15): something super interesting in our work, in general, and in any inner conflict that we see, there's almost, there's like a build up in a complexity of factors that people are navigating, and they're sort of navigating, I like to say, of course, they're navigating a wilderness, and they're in the dark forest, and there's lots of things going on, and then all of a sudden, something, And it might be a small thing, just makes it clear that there is a kind of choice, or there is a there is a direction that is pulling them and that they are ready to

Susan (43:55): move, not only with clients and not only with family and Friends, but yes, with myself. You know that that moment, or the moment that leads to a moment where you go, Oh, right, the wonderful metaphor that Paul used about the scales, the piece of gold that makes you go, Okay, have no idea whether this is going to work out, but I now know what my truth is, and I know now what I need to do, what direction I need to take.

Caitlin (44:29): I think that point about I now know what my truth is is another really compelling piece of this. Right when it's undeniable what your inner voice or compass is telling you, and you can't endure the pain of denying it anymore. You know that to know that it's more painful to not listen to yourself and what you know to be true. Mm. Than it is to take a leap into the unknown.

James (45:03): I'm interested to hear from either of you how to move from all that attention on the inner voices, the inner conflict, and how you encourage people to move that into action, what needs to happen to turn that into

Caitlin (45:22): action. I think it can happen so many different ways. I mean, one of the early things I like to do with clients is to sort of run thought experiments, you know, and to just really flesh out a thought experiment about different ways that that making decisions or working through various outcomes of a of a inner conflict could turn out right. So what happens in Paul's case if he stays with Amy and things work out. What happens if he goes with Amy and things don't work out? What happens if he stays in his marriage and things stay as is? What happens if he stays in his marriage but they get help and try to work things out is there? Is there a positive outcome? So, like working through many possible thought experiments of the future is one, one good place to start and noticing in those thought experiments what really is calling what feels warm, possible you know, feels more right than the others, or, you know, knocking things off the list when you know they absolutely feel wrong.

Susan (46:50): I totally agree with you. Caitlin thought experiments are the first step, and they allow experimentation, if you like, without real risk. You know, nobody's saying, Well, what happens if Paul moves out? And how would that work? The first step is always to imagine and to create in your mind and explore in your mind and take on board all the parts we've been talking about, the one that wants to leave, the one that wants to go, wants to stay, the one that is still drawn back to marriage staying, the part that thinks, no, no, I need to go right now. So all sorts of thought experiments, and then see what happens to your

Caitlin (47:43): truth. And I think you can follow that out with what is the first, lowest risk real life experiment in those thought experiments that feel that feel good, that feel warm, that feel interesting to you, where you have a pull. You know, while still being obviously, we're advocating for thoughtfulness and consideration of other people, including his wife and family. And you know, we don't even know what Amy's scenario is, but it's also, it also begs to be questioned. What is going on for these other people, and how do you get in an honest conversation for the other people in the constellation here? Because maybe Amy's got a more complex scenario. And I'm sure Paul's wife has something to say about what's going on in their marriage and how it feels for her to be with somebody who is challenged in wanting, their wanting and going after their wanting. I mean, there's a lot of possible directions, none of which is right or wrong or but hopefully helps you find your way to feeling more in alignment, right, more like I'm I'm moving in the direction that feels right for me,

Susan (49:13): and it's a continuation of what we were saying at the very beginning, Around gathering information, trying to understand what's really happening. For all we know, Paul's wife could be going, oh, thank heaven. I wasn't happy either. Amy might be going, well, this is all very well, but I don't want any part of this. So gathering the information, firming up the understanding, getting closer and closer to finding out what's right for you in this situation,

James (49:47): in these thought experiments, or these, as they become reality experiments, I think there is a point where the person has to find themselves. They have to recover themselves. First. As this becomes more real, it becomes harder work. At some point you're going to have to sit down with Amy and say, here's what I imagine, not knowing how Amy's going to respond, you're going to have to sit down with your wife and say, here's how I feel, not knowing how they're going to respond and sit down with your children. And once you've done that, those things are out of your control. They go off and they talk to other people, and suddenly your social circle sees you differently. There is a place where you have to find your courage and sit with this and go, right, I'm opening it up, and I am strong enough and open enough to be that bloody vulnerable, because this could go really, really badly, and just voicing the query can ruin the rest of my life. I mean, of course it can make the rest of your life, but at that point, you don't know. So I think there's a real piece of work between the thought experiment and the starting, starting to sort of push into the reality experiments of going, am I ready for this? Am I physically ready for this? Because this is reality. This is where it's actually going to come back to me. I will get the responses. They may not be the responses I want. This is no longer just thinking

Caitlin (51:32): totally, I love the way you've articulated that like I get this image of, do you feel sturdy in yourself, in your understanding of this moment, and are you prepared for the ripples that are going to be out of your control as soon as this leaves your inner world and becomes outer reality. If we

Susan (52:02): come back to our direction metaphor, you start off in a direction. You make sure that your truth is setting the compass. I'm going in my direction. Hold on a minute. The road is not empty, and there are going to be distractions, and you may reach a point where you have choices to make. You may reach a point where you turn around and you go, you know what? Want to go back where I started, except that it can't be where you started, because it's never going to be the same. So the thought experiments move on to the reality experiments, and then, given that your tooth may change completely, and the story changes completely, and we've only followed Paul so far, you know, we don't know what his long term future is going to be like. But as you said, James, the courage to take inner truth and make it part of real life is crucial, and it may change everything.

Caitlin (53:11): And there are a couple more points from Paul, so let's see where we get to in his story.

Paul (53:20): Slowly. Slowly. I brought my marriage to an end, and now I'm with Amy, and we're developing a relationship.

Caitlin (53:34): Emphasis on slowly, slowly, yes, was an interesting piece, as as as it follows our comments, right?

James (53:45): I'm really interested in that. How do you do something slowly that's so cataclysmic, I can imagine just starting the conversation and watching everything collapse. So there's a clearly, a lot of skill has gone into that, a lot of thoughtfulness and a lot of care into we are navigating the end of an era, and let's find the best way to

Caitlin (54:11): do that, James, it reminds me kind of circling back to your point about in midlife, we wake up and sometimes ask, What the hell am I living my life the way I want to given the short time I have left. And also, how can I be more conscious in the decisions I make going forward? How can I bring greater levels of care and consideration. So maybe even though this has a connotation of some kind of explosivity to it, you know, leaving a marriage or or exploring an affair, or all of these things, maybe actually our perception, socially speaking, is incorrect, maybe some of this is very. I thoughtfully, slowly, carefully thought through, or at least it could be just as well that as it could be the explosive thing.

James (55:11): When I was thinking about courage earlier, I was thinking about the courage to both be resolute, but also to receive whatever comes back in a non reactive way, to be able to remain steadfast in the direction I'm following, and potentially to do so in a way that recognizes the pain I'm causing and that can hold those around me, it's taking responsibility, isn't it, for a massive sea change. And I imagine that where things get explosive is where we have not done so much of that preparatory work of understanding the magnitude of what feeling is going to arise where we're uncomfortable, and we go, I want out. Somebody gets angry, and we go, yeah, I was right, so I'm leaving, and everything collapses. So I think I'd love to go back and ask him slowly, slowly, I brought my marriage to an end. It's such a smooth little statement, but I think it hides a huge amount of work from everyone. It's like, how do you stop an ocean liner? And the answer is, very, very slowly, otherwise you're just going to ram it into the port. That's it takes a huge amount of skill to change the direction of something that's been moving for 25 years, or arguably, since he was three.

Caitlin (56:48): Susan, can you tell us? How do people do that, coming to the end of their relationships? Consciously, carefully.

Susan (56:59): I was just thinking when James is talking that okay, the people who come to see me are, by definition, people who are concerned about leaving a relationship, or concerned about the fact their partner wants to leave the relationship, and they put a great deal of thought into it. So I can't say I've ever had a client who turns up and says, Well, I woke up this morning and said, I'm out of here. People do take this seriously. They do take it slowly. I'm not saying that the stay or go in partnership is so big in a conflict, it's one of many big inner conflicts, but it is one that largely people think about carefully before they do it. They doubt themselves. They do the thought experiments. They think it through, they realize the effect on everybody around them, and sometimes it's still right for them to go, and sometimes it's also right for the people around them that they go. And sometimes, as Jane says, it's a huge explosion that is going to change your life.

Caitlin (58:17): Shall we hear the final bit of Paul's story and what he has to say.

Paul (58:25): What kind of life will I have now I've ended my marriage. I mean, only time can tell, right? But what I do know is that whatever happens, it will be worth it. And whatever happens, I just need to stop thinking that anything I want I can't have simply because I want to. I

James (58:52): think that's a mic drop from our pool.

Caitlin (58:55): He is undoing a deep story that he had about himself, and in that undoing that story, he is he sees that that is certainly the right thing. He really needed to be free of that story, and he has a new one.

James (59:16): Well, even that I'm allowed to want what I want, I'm

Susan (59:19): wondering if it's time to just look back very briefly about what the takeaways are here. I mean, I mean, certainly for me, it's being prepared to find out what your truth is as an adult and separate it from the lessons you've had through life, and that would be one thing that I would say to look at in Eddie in a conflict. What about you two? What are you taking away from this that can be useful?

James (59:57): Well, I'd like to jump on what you just said. And politely, respectfully suggest there are multiple truths that may rise at any point in somebody's life. And what we have done here is we have focused on one single realization that Paul's had, and I think we're referring to it as his truth, as a shorthand, when the reality is all of those parts of him, all of those voices, contain a truth, yes, yes, and what hasn't happened so far is there hasn't been negotiation of those truths, or one has had control over all the others. That's the three year old experience in this case, but Paul's come to a point where other voices become louder and he can start to hear the three year old for what it is. He can start to see how that three year old experience has taken the brunt of keeping him safe throughout the whole of his life thus far, but slowly and surely, the other voices have become loud enough and strong enough that they can start to be heard and the negotiations can start again. I just feel it's really important to recognize that we contain multitudes. Is the phrase, isn't it?

Susan (1:01): :35 And you've used a lovely word there, which is negotiation, and obviously one of the negotiations has to be how Paul's change of direction impacts those around him, but I think there's also negotiation that needs to happen inside him, between Well, I now realize that I deserve to have what I want, but I want other people to have what they want, and I don't want to be selfish, but and all those negotiations, internal negotiations, and Then the external negotiations for him to take a direction and for other people to be considered,

Caitlin (1:02): :27 and it's applicable to many, or maybe all of the inner conflicts that we will discuss is this idea of, you know, an overstory and an understory, and that almost all inner conflicts have a context and a set of actors and a real life situation that's going on. And that is your over story, that's your your outer expression of that that you're dealing with. And then there is what sits underneath it. And how do you go into what sits underneath it, explore it. Be curious, be compassionate, get help, gather information, do what's needed in that space, and then begin to translate into a new outer story. And it's that process that I think we will see again and again in all of our stories, but is very well illustrated here.

Paul's story may well have left you thinking about your own Should I stay, or should I go? Inner conflict, or perhaps another inner conflict. If you're interested in exploring more the show notes, offer you not only a transcript of the podcast, but also link you to helpful resources on our website, thetornproject.com Please do also follow us on Instagram at the torn project for regular stories, resources and hope for all things inner conflict.