Richard's Story: I felt powerless to stop drinking

Caitlin (0:04): What happens when drinking alcohol shifts from being a pleasant, social recreation to something a bit darker. This podcast explores whether Richard was able, in the end, to overcome his need to drink.

Have you ever felt torn, experienced that inner struggle of clashing needs, yearnings and beliefs, not a fight with others, but a fight within yourself? It's confusing, it's painful, it's inner conflict. I'm Caitlin. I'm Susan. We are coaches with different areas of expertise and a shared passion for helping everyone understand and navigate torn feelings. Welcome to our podcast, where we share stories, resources and hope around all things inner conflict.

This story is about someone renegotiating their relationship with alcohol. The strategy may not suit everyone, as it's not focused on addiction recovery. Show notes will offer guidelines for clinical addiction. We'd like you to please keep this in mind while listening.

Richard (1:30): Yeah, I knew for a while that I drank more than was good to me, yet on any particular day, was hard to persuade myself not to drink that day. Then I had a wake up call health wise and knew I absolutely needed to stop.

Caitlin (1:59): In today's episode, we explore what can happen when it becomes clear that an enjoyable habit is causing harm and needs to change, and when facing that change becomes an inner conflict. After many years of drinking safely, Richard realized that he needed to cut back completely, but when he tried to stop, he found he couldn't.

Richard (2:30): When I finally realized my health was deteriorating, I thought I'm long and hard about whether and how to stop drinking, but I felt so much resistance inside myself,

Richard (2:51): and I felt powerless to find a way through it.

Caitlin (2:59): So all of a sudden, Richard felt that something became clear and developed into a problem he had to face up to.

Susan (3:09): And I'm very aware that this is a problem that might not be about alcohol, it might be about smoking or drug taking or anything that feels like a need, but then suddenly somebody becomes aware that they may need it, but they don't need the after effects that it's become a problem for them. And I'm also aware that in different cultures that need that is then the source of an inner conflict. It can be very different things, very different things.

Caitlin (3:42): Let's get a little bit further into Richard's conception of what's going on for him this time.

Richard (3:50): Yeah, I enjoy drinking most of my life. That's not felt a problem for me, but over the past few years, I realized I was drinking too much, too often. Yeah, I once tried to do a dry January and Arsenal lunchtime on the second day I had a wake up call. I started having 2am night sweats. If I drank during the day, was going to work all morning and felt a bit ill, and I just thought I had like two thirds of a bottle of wine last night.

Richard (4:46): Oh, God, this, this isn't sustainable. I realized that I needed to give up alcohol, at least for a while. I knew I had to, but I didn't want to.

Susan (5:03): That tipping point is so common in the shift from maybe having an unconscious in a conflict having a conscious one. It isn't always an external event or an event that you've created yourself that makes that shift. And it can be about anything. Doesn't need to be health issues. There's a point where it finally lands with you that you need to make a change, and it also finally lands that you have a lot of conflict or resistance against making that change.

Caitlin (5:37): It's, I mean, the bottom line is, something's not okay, and, oh gosh, a mountain I'm going to have to climb in order to address that.

Susan (5:50): But I think it's a really crucial point that up to then, you've just accepted that you're doing something that is maybe not too good for you. I mean, it may not be ingesting something. It may be some behavior you're doing, and it gradually dawns slowly and slowly, and then suddenly it becomes clear and and that's actually a step forward. It may feel like, Oh, I've realized there's a problem that's terrible. The problem was there, and now you've realized it, and now you're able to put it into words. And I have to say, to take action, even if you're not going to be happy taking action. And that's so important, it's so the first step,

Caitlin (6:27): absolutely and just shortly after that first step, a Richard encounters how challenging it is to open up to a new piece of information or a new behavior, and actually try to affect change right our old ways of being and doing, and the various crutches that we have are like these well worn fast rivers, and we have this concept of, You know, rivers of thinking or rivers of being, and we have, over and over and over again in our lives, been doing similar things, and it's very hard to change the course of that river. So he's encountering that sense of resistance and that sense of what a challenge it is to really face into a new way of doing things.

Susan (7:24): It may seem as if the resistance is a sign of weakness. You know, of course, I can just decide that I'm not going to drink anymore on a Monday and never drink again. It's not like that. Very few people can change a habit however much they want to just overnight. And so you self sabotage, you know, making a New Year's resolution maybe, and mysteriously, by January the third, you found yourself in the pub. This is not weakness. This is simply two different parts of you, if you like, two different parts of you saying that they want different things and yeah, there's working through to be done. That's That's what inner conflict and the Tom project is all about. But it's not weakness. It's simply two needs, two wants, that you have fluttering

Caitlin (8:15): conflict Exactly. So let's hear a little bit more from Richard about these different parts and different needs that he's becoming aware of.

Richard (8:27): I'd known for a while about a particular way of resolving things inside yourself. It's a metaphor that we're all made up of different parts, like a team. You know, when you say a par be stinks this, or a palm bee wants that. So to get something done, you need to get all the team on board, get them all agreeing and working together, I really felt that about my drinking. It felt as if a lot of me, a lot of my parts, really wanted to stop drinking, but many didn't. It felt like I needed to get them working together, so I literally spread out a big piece of paper on my desk here, and I just tried to identify them, work out who they are. I came up for with little names for them. And there were about eight or 10, you know, I wasn't just drawing up a pros and cons list. It was more like they were characters. It ended up as this. I was like chairing a committee. Sitting around a table, you know, like having a conversation with them all, listening to them, not jumping or arguing, just letting them speak.

Caitlin (10:11): Well, thank Richard for this masterclass. Introduction to parts mapping, right? So he is informally introducing us to this idea, which comes from internal family systems, therapy of parts mapping, and that is getting really clear on the different parts of you that are being activated, and what it is those parts of you might be trying to tell you, to make you feel, make you realize, and how it is those parts are communicating, I love how you said, I literally got pieces of paper out, you know, and kind of put them all on the table, which is a real strategy that we can use. Susan, maybe you can say a little more about how this, how this shows up for you and your work.

Susan (11:07): I love Richard's. It was as if I was sharing a committee. I mean, maybe he got that because he was sitting at his desk at the time. But I'm sure you found this. Caitlin working with clients, they very often come up with their own metaphor. Now this might be a metaphor with people. Richard had a committee. One of my clients, had a full medieval court, and she was a queen, and she had courtiers, and she had her own princesses, her own children were there. And then she had visiting kings and queens, and they all interacted. There was little sort of mini drama going on, but very often it's much simpler and obviously just as effective. One of my clients all her parts. For some reason, she saw them as ants, and they were sitting on the roadside, on the curbside, just having a chat to each other about, you know, we want this. We want that. And very recently, a client ended up with parts that represented themselves in her mind, what she was seeing, what she was hearing were they were cuddly toys, little elephants, little unicorns, little furry toys. I'm half laughing, but I'm laughing because this works to actually, whatever your personal metaphor is for your parts. It's reflecting that there are a multitude of motivations and ideas and intentions inside you, and very often, you develop your own metaphor.

Caitlin (12:54): I love that, and you certainly taught me to always go with what comes up inside your oneself or inside our clients, and that indeed they should, they show up in all sorts of extraordinary ways. So yeah, for some people, they might be able to name them and, you know, lay out the CEO and the board and the employees and and so on. Or it might be a classroom or a team. Richard had a couple of different metaphors here. Actually, he did mention a team. However, it is that you experience your multiplicity. You can map it and give it some kind of naming, some kind of connotations that you can return to. And for some people, their parts are also coming alive in their bodies in different ways and speaking to them or being sensed in different ways. So some parts may have names and sort of an inner dialog that's associated that with them, but other parts may actually live as a moving sensation in a particular area of your body, it may show up as a color, a temperature, a particular pain or pleasure. So just being aware that our parts speak to us in a multiplicity of ways is also really a beautiful exercise. And you can, if you are beginning to think about and sense and feel into the many parts of you, you can be, yeah, just just quite curious about what it is that's inside and how it's trying to communicate with you. Don't feel that you need to have a specific set way of understanding your parts

Susan (14:44): that's so important. I often find clients awed by Oh, I'll never be able to come up with anything that sounds good or you know, that's going to impress you. It's I've worked with oh, 1000 clients, let's say. None of them have the same metaphor. None of them see their parts or hear their parts or feel their parts in the same way. And if you've just so beautifully said Caitlin, it could be an instinct. It could be a pleasure or a pain moving through your body. So whatever happens, if your parts are communicating, you will find that they're communicating with you. It won't be to do with anybody else's medieval course,

Caitlin (15:25): but just notice and allow that to become somehow material in your mind. So you can refer back to those parts. That's That's an interesting piece that we can all do to get to know our parts. Let's hear a little bit more from Richard and how his parts were speaking to him.

Richard (15:49): Yeah, so these parts the team, a part who wanted to keep drinking because pleasure is important, a part that likes to try new drinks, a part that felt I deserve a reward at the end of the day. More a part that felt if I didn't get that reward, I would lose motivation, stop working altogether, and become homeless and destitute. But on the other hand, a part that thought, if I went too total, I'd become one of those boring, lonely nerds. But on the other side, there were lots of parts that wanted me to be healthy, parts that didn't like the hangover and the general feeling ill, and I just didn't like it when I drank too much. Didn't feel good emotionally. So I had lots of parts of me all fighting each other.

Caitlin (17:02): So it's clear for Richard that all of his parts have a particular motivation, a particular want, that they that they want for him, I think that's coming across quite clearly here.

Susan (17:17): For a lot of people, it isn't as clear. This is Richard having thought about it. It's certainly what he experienced at the time. But since then, he's had a lot of time to remember and to think. And he was very clear when he came to do this interview that he didn't just have one part or two parts. In fact, in order for it to be an inner conflict, by definition, it's always got to be two parts or more, but he was very clear that he had far more than that. And he was, it was almost like spinning plates that they were all wanting their needs to be met. It's, it's great idea, I think, if you're starting to become aware of parts about a particular issue, to write them down, otherwise they may get lost. They may get lost.

Caitlin (18:07): One of the words you've just been using is he was clear, right? But he he put the effort in to become clear and to listen to all of these parts and to try to decipher what message sits underneath these different parts of me that are creating a sense of internal conflict and actually having enough curiosity and enough compassion for all of these parts that they each had some space to articulate what it is those parts were trying to remind him of this is quite an important part of the process, right? And it can take some time to move from Oh, I'm unclear and fuzzy, and I know this doesn't feel right. And there's parts of me that say this and parts of me that say that, to this point where you really know what parts are involved in the inner conflict and what is their underlying motivation. For you, I

Susan (19:15): love that bit about underlying motivations, but what I find with some of my clients is that if, like Richard, they've got, you know, 789, 10 things going on, they feel completely helpless, like, How on earth am I going to get all the parts that want me to drink to agree with all the parts that don't want me to Drink? And it's not as clear as pros and cons. You know, if you do a list of pros and cons and you come to the end, what happens if you've got equal pros and equal cons, which is essentially what Richard has here, and that's where the next stage you take is really important, but it's also you. Where one mustn't become overwhelmed with all these reasons, all these Well, I want to try new drinks or but I want to be healthy. I really don't want to be a nerd, but on the other hand, I really don't like it when I drink too much, so it can feel overwhelming, but the whole point is that these parts can, as Richard discovers, and we'll see in the next section, Richard can and does get all the parts working together.

Caitlin (20:34): Yes, critically, he has to allow some openness, some flexibility in to the space of listening to these parts and imagine and kind of take a bit of a hopeful leap, that he can have the right negotiating skills with his many parts to be able to allow them to Begin working together and moving together and getting enough of their underlying motivations and desires for him satisfied that they can be on board with his way forward. So let's hear from Richard how this works out in the next stage.

Richard (21:19): I took time about a week to think about all of this, all the parts and what they wanted. Kept going back to my map. And then after that, when I thought of a solution or a way forward, I sort of ponder it and check in what I felt about it. Sort of ask my parts whether they could sign up to that, yeah, like a like a business meeting. It sounds odd, but I definitely felt when parts agreed and were happy to try something, or when it was a definite no. So, for example, the money I've been spending on booze, I suggested spending on really good, alcohol free drinks. Finding those drinks found out fun. And the money spent got like a treat. I wasn't going to compromise on flavor that seemed to get a yes. And as for the not wanting to be lonely or boring, well, that was easy. I just decided to keep socializing, but not drink. And of course, the parts that wanted me to cut down on the drinking for health and feeling bad. What up for all of that?

Susan (22:46): I tell you what strikes me. Not once in describing the parts, and in this section, where Richard is exploring how he got the answers for them, or at least some of the answers. Not once did he tell a part to sit down, shut up, stop talking, stop communicating. Don't object, don't fight. And it's so tempting, you know, let me just ignore the part that wants to keep socializing, or let's just dismiss and resist the part that says, Oh, well, you know, you're too unhealthy. There's never a point where he shuts anybody out of the negotiation. And of course, that's the secret to good negotiation. You need to make sure that every part is happy with what's happening. As Richard also says, this takes a while. It's not an instant fix, but I find it I find it really interesting that he never turned against a part ignored. It tells you to get lost totally.

Caitlin (24:01): I think in in my experience coaching, I absolutely think all parts must be listened to in order to get that kind of okay, everyone is going to be on board. I'm going to get that sense that this has an onward direction that we can move forward with with some degree of consensus. I also want to point out, though, that sometimes you do need to ask a part to step back, just not that it is going to be ignored. You must ask very, very nicely with reassurances that you are absolutely going to get back to that part, and you absolutely want to hear what that part has to say to you and all of that. But that is very hard to hear all the parts all at the same time. So we ask parts sometimes if they wouldn't mind if they would be so kind to form. Form an orderly cue, because we believe in what all parts have to tell us, and we want to hear the wisdom of all parts.

Susan (25:10): And the metaphor the rich views is really speaks to that. I mean, if you're in any meeting where you know everybody in the group is willing to cooperate, but they all want to speak at once. You have to say, No, can I hear that one? But then you also have to hear all of them. But sometimes people have to calm down and step back rather than piling in. And Richard seems to have done that very well. And as you've just said, Caitlin, it's an absolute basic for coming to any resolution where you're asking your parts to negotiate,

Caitlin (25:49): yeah, so that's the listening part, right? And he's doing that so beautifully. But he's also doing a couple of other really important things here, right? One of the things he's doing is that he is in conversation with his parts, and he is in a kind of creative and playful and flexible conversation with his parts, which I really want to draw attention to, because a part may say a certain thing, and it may feel very black and white, but once you get into dialog with a part and you say, Well, what about this? And well, what about that, we begin to expand the horizons of what might satisfy a part. So I like it when he's saying, All right, well, I decided I've got some extra money kicking around, and I'm going to spend that on really good quality drinks, and I'm going to get really excited about choosing flavorful, alcohol free drinks. And then all of a sudden, that compromise sort of eased the worry of a part, and they got on board right. Another thing I want to draw attention to here is that it's clear that he felt that he could pick up on when things were right for him or wrong for him, that he had some kind of sense of when a part agreed and felt ready to go forward with what he was proposing, or when a part was said, No, that's not good enough. Susan, tell us a little bit more about how this shows up.

Susan (27:28): Well, it's almost like parts give you a yes or a no, and I'm sure you found this Caitlin that, again, will vary. It's always personal. You know your yes might be you hear a voice in your head going, Yes, that's right for me, let's do that. Your no might be something completely different. It might be a feeling of anxiety in your tummy, a yes or a maybe. Might be some sense of confusion you really don't know. And then you maybe think about a little more, or look at each part and ask it what it wants, and what you get is a much clearer. Oh, yes, if we can, for example, socialize, but not drink. We'll agree not to drink, but we don't want to lose the socialization. So yes, if we can socialize, but if we can't socialize, really not happy. And then, as Richard had said, you keep going. You keep going with that. And he does it so beautifully.

Caitlin (28:37): Yeah, I think just to make this super practical for our audience, there is an exercise that you can do for yourself where you just get quiet and still and close your eyes and go internal and think about what signals happen in my body when everything feels right For me. And can you think of a particular example when everything felt right for you? Draw that example forward in your mind, make it very clear and vivid, and then notice how your parts signal to you When Everything Feels right equally. You can draw an example not with too much emotion, but but with a certain degree of emotion that you can get a sense for it, when things feel wrong for you, when you are irritated, you make a stand, you say no, what happens in your body? How are your parts communicating when things feel wrong for you? And you can use this as a baseline, right? And you will then know when you're in a parts conversation, dialog, multi log like this, you will know, ah, there's a sense of relaxation. There's a sense of settling into this feels right for me, or there's a sense of irritation, anxiety, etc. However it is that you're know. Communicates to you, you will know that piece as well. And you made the point that sometimes parts say yes and or yes if and they will, they will let you know that too. So have a little experiment with those. We're going to return back to Richard now and and see what happens as he navigates his way through this solution.

Richard (30:27): Yeah, um, so last bit of the puzzle was that none of the parts wanted to ban alcohol forever. And at first I thought, oh, maybe that's dangerous. Should I be saying I'm giving up totally. But then I was on a training course, nothing to do with drinking, and I said, if you want to do something, it works to set a deadline. And I immediately knew what felt right. Experiment for 30 days that immediately felt comfortable, felt doable. I went straight back home afterwards and put 30 days in my diary. So I decided to trial there for 30 days. But in fact, after two weeks, I had another committee meeting, because I was getting the sense that a month being off alcohol wasn't going to be enough. Let's go for two months. And I got a big yes on that. All my parts were happy with the experiment. After a full month, I felt even better in myself after six weeks, it was, yeah, let's keep going.

Susan (31:52): I think one of the really interesting things here is the way Richard hasn't just got agreement from his parts and then forgotten about it in the same ways. A meeting is not just a one off. You don't leave the meeting and it's all settled forever. You have a follow up meeting to see if everybody's happy and whether it's working, and whether the protocols you put in place are actually effective. And he's absolutely doing this. I'm not saying that if your metaphor is not a meeting room, you can't find a way around it. The client I mentioned earlier, who had a medieval court, they used to have round table sessions, or they used to go out on training in jousting, and they would talk about it. They would negotiate it. This was good. This was working. This didn't. And I love the way Richard checks in regularly. As one client once said to me, I thought if I agreed something with a part, that was it, but it isn't, is it? And of course, it isn't in respect to the parts you need to keep checking in Absolutely.

Caitlin (33:01): I like some of the illustrations you give them. Just to offer a few more. You know, it's, it's, it's something that, why would recommend integrating into any daily practices that are already existing for some people who don't have an immediate metaphor in mind, like a meeting or so on, maybe before you go to bed, you can take 510 minutes just to close your eyes and check in and sense your parts and whether any parts have anything to communicate to you how they're feeling, how they're feeling with any changes that you're making, and whether any parts are having any resistance, any comments, any questions. And, you know, Richard is really illustrating a master class in in listening and then responding and getting outside inspiration. You know, he's heard about this set a deadline. He goes, Oh, hey, hey, parts, I heard about setting a deadline. I think this could be a good idea for us. Shall we try 30 days and then he's like, he gets, he gets close to that two weeks down the line, he says, I think we can extend our deadline. What do you guys think you know? So he's very responsive, and he keeps checking in. And we can do that at night, we can do it in the shower. We can do it while we're washing our hands. We can do it while we're washing the dishes. Or indeed, you can. You can set aside a particular meeting and a particular moment to address your court, whatever it is that works for you.

Susan (34:36): I think the other thing to notice with Richard is that he's not, again, he's not saying, well, everybody else agrees. So that part that's disagreeing all the way along the line he's had a check is everybody on board. And I guess the way to put it is that a conflict is when you're getting some yeses and some. Nose to a way forward, and in a conflict resolution is when every part of you is saying yes, and they may say yes, we'll do it for a week, and then you need to check back with them. But if you've got 40 parts and one of me is going, I'm absolutely against this, you'll undermine it. It just won't quite work out. It will still feel uncomfortable. But if you've got 40 parts all going yes, then as long as you keep checking in with them, you have a result, and you will find something that is right for you.

Caitlin (35:34): And I'd like to add that sometimes we don't have all the time in the world for our parts, and we may forget to check in, and a part may have acted out. Part may have decided that it really wanted its its voice to be heard and and that sometimes, as we're navigating an inner conflict, and we're doing this kind of parts work and listening and trying to make sure everybody's on board. Sometimes it's one step forward, two steps back, and sometimes we can revert to form, or one part can urge us back to an old behavior or an action that doesn't feel right for everybody. And if that happens, please do not lose faith that everything that you've been doing so far is not in vain or you just simply need to get back to that meeting, get back to that court table and and check in and start hearing again all of the voices, all of the parts, whatever it is that they are trying to express.

Richard (36:45): Then, after six months, I was down on the coast on a walk in holiday, and of course, at the end of the day, you watch the sunset and have a beer. And I saw thought, Well, how about I check in and see if that will work. How about drinking alcohol on special, special occasions and holidays, but not the rest of the time? I got an answer from around the committee table of oh yes, please. So I had a bin and watched the sunset. But at the time, all parts of me were clear that it that when it wasn't a special occasion, I wouldn't need to drink alcohol. And when I got back from holiday, I went back to the original plan, and I've kept to it.

Caitlin (37:47): So his resolution and his solutions to this are adapting and changing as he proceeds.

Susan (37:57): Yeah, the solution that he has held for six months suddenly has a challenge. I mean, certainly, my experience with clients is that in any internal conflict, there will be situations where you need to rethink. There'll be, if not, a crisis, a challenge to what you've decided. I need to add here that this sort of reversal and rethink and the sort of solutions that we are suggesting these are not going to be appropriate if somebody is in clinical, life altering addiction, that is a completely different scenario, and one that The torn project is not addressing, but in situations where there is some flexibility. And Richard is approaching this in very pragmatic way, and he's listening to his resistances again. He's not saying, How dare you have that thought about have a beer and watch the sunset. And he goes forward to a negotiation, which goes, Okay, what if I drink on special occasions, and his parts go, yeah, yeah, that will work. And because all parts were clear and agreed, yes, it did work. So I guess the message, actually, the lesson that Richard is offering us there is, if there is a challenge, you know, however panicked you might feel, oh, you know, I've lost it. You know, I'm starting to eat donuts again or drink alcohol or have another cigarette, or whatever the situation is, the answer is not to panic and go back to the beginning. It's to go back to the drawing board. Check in with all your parts. See how many are still on board. See what needs to change so that you're getting yeses all around the table.

Richard (39:53): I've thought a lot about why this worked for me, and it does make sense, not. Drinking increased my pleasure from alcohol, so my reward part felt rewarded. I was having fun, finding new drinks. I was still socializing. Plus I lost some weight. Felt good in myself and if I ever drank too much, the hangover reminded me to keep on Track My Health parts were good with that. Thing is, I'm getting more rewards from only drinking a bit as a special thing than I did from drinking a lot all the time. So all the parts that didn't want me to drink are happy, and the ones that do want me to drink are getting what they want to

Caitlin (40:52): it sounds like he has settled into a more enduring resolution for his many parts,

Susan (40:59): and it's such A lovely summary, all the parts that didn't want this are happy, and all the ones that did want this are getting what they want to and that's absolutely what to aim for, getting all yeses. And it may take time to think through, as we've said, and it may need rethinking from time to time, maybe you've lost the direction the going for all the yeses, as Richard has explained, is absolutely the key here,

Caitlin (41:26): absolutely, and the ongoing relationship with his parts and the ongoing listening, because perhaps from time to time he wants to reorient his behaviors or change direction, and I think that's the real take home for me. And what I'm hearing so far from Richard is that he's he's constantly attuning to his many parts. He's constantly making little micro adjustments and trying to make sure that he really is fully on board with what he's what he's doing. Let's hear the next part of his resolution. I think we're coming towards the end of his story now.

Richard (42:09): So I've now had 18 months of a happy, healthy drinking ban. I'm an occasional drinker now, I don't know, like, two or three times a month, maybe something like that, which feels like a brilliant outcome. I don't just want to sit on my laurels with it and go, Okay, great, done. I still need to check in regularly with my committee meeting make sure they're all on side. But if they are, I can carry on doing what I'm doing forever.

Caitlin (42:48): You can hear it in his voice, right? How How much more connected and content he feels with his parts in relation to this whole idea of what is a healthy drinking pattern for me, and I'm

Susan (43:06): interested that he's used a lot of ways forward there. I mean, it was a complex problem. There were a lot of parts involved, and he's used a lot of skill. He acknowledged the initial need for change. He was willing to accept that he needed to stop drinking, and then he used the parts metaphor to just pinpoint. He spent a lot of time identifying what each part was, what knew what it needed, what it was frightened of, what it wanted. He actually put a piece of paper on the table. He wrote it down, and we were suggesting that writing it down may help. And Richard tried to go with each part, not to put any part down, or to dismiss any part as irrelevant. But he also accepted that there's likely to be some disagreement and some contradiction, that if that wasn't addressed, if a part that did have a resistance was still not happy, then probably the solution wouldn't take he was willing to experiment. He came up with some solutions. He was quite flexible. He allowed himself when he had a big challenge of, does he have the end of the walk and the sunset and the beer to go? Okay, let's be flexible here. And he wasn't thrown by that crisis. And over and over again, he checked in. I guess the thing that thing that I come up with is, you know when the resolution is resolved. You know when the inner conflict is going to be over, when you're getting a yes and there's no no's lurking in the background, or no whispered nos no churning of your stomach, and then you can go forward and. Know that this will almost certainly work.

Caitlin (45:02): Let's hear a final a final piece from Richard.

Richard (45:08): There was always a part of me that that knew rationally it would be great to drink less, but doing something like that had always seems impossible. I now, making sure I'm getting the upsides of drinking and none of the downsides. I've got everything I wanted you.

Caitlin (45:47): This podcast may well have left you thinking about your own health choices or those of people close to you. So if you're interested in knowing more, the show notes offer you not only a transcript of the podcast, but also links you to helpful resources on our website, the torn project.com and please do follow us on Instagram at the torn project for regular stories, resources and hope for all things inner conflict.

The Torn Podcast is created by Susan Quilliam, Caitlin Cockerton and James Knight. Thank you to our podcast producer Finn Kinsella of Flume Creative, to our music composers Michal, Mikolaj and Bolek Błaszczyk, to our team of actors and to all those who have contributed their lived experiences, specialist knowledge and professional support.