What is Parts Work & Why is it Important?

Caitlin (0:04): What if your inner critic, your anxieties, even those seemingly bad habits, weren't actually your personal enemies, but well intentioned parts of you trying to keep you safe today we explore internal family systems, an increasingly popular therapeutic method that our guest Alex practices with his clients. Today's episode shows us how this transformative model for understanding ourselves can help us befriend our inner worlds, heal old wounds and unlock a deeper sense of self acceptance and harmony.

Caitlin (0:30): Have you ever felt torn experienced that inner struggle of clashing needs, yearnings and beliefs, not a fight with others, but a fight within yourself. It's confusing, it's painful, it's inner conflict. I'm Caitlin. I'm a coach, and I'm passionate about helping everyone understand and navigate torn feelings. Welcome to our podcast where we share stories, resources and hope around all things, inner conflict.

Caitlin (1:04): Before we dive into today's episode, I want to clarify that our guest is a respected licensed therapist who, due to confidentiality, cannot be named in order to share his insights, his name has been changed, and his responses are voiced over by an actor. This ensures we comply with his professional regulations while providing you our listeners with valuable information. Let's begin.

Caitlin (1:34): Today I'm talking to Alex. Alex is a registered psychotherapist using the approach of internal family systems. He's also a qualified integrative psychotherapist whose practice is based in London, Alex, we're so glad to have you here with us today for a conversation that sheds light on one really useful approach used in counseling. It's this idea of parts and the role they play in helping us resolve our inner conflict. Thank you very much. I'd love to start from the perspective of somebody who's torn, right, somebody who might come to you for help with an inner conflict. Can you give us a sense of who's coming to you with these inner struggles and senses of being torn? You know, how are they showing up and and how do you begin to support them in their journey?

Alex (2:53): Yes, a lot of people coming in to experience the approach I offer internal family systems, or ifs for short, they, they believe they are one entity. They're one sort of United whole. They, they have these thoughts crashing through their minds and feelings rolling through their bodies. The the IFS proposition is, what if all these thoughts, of all of these feelings were actually multiple characters within you. What if they if they had their own stories and histories? So the next idea I explain is, what if none of these parts was actually bad? Because I think a lot of people come into therapy wanting to get rid of something, some part of themselves, they might come in disliking or even hating parts of themselves. And so I say to them, what if I could guide you to get to know these parts of you in such a way that that you understood yourself very differently and felt differently about your problems through the relationship you build with these parts. It's it's a bit counter cultural to the idea that we have in the West, that we have just this one mind and really a multiplicity of person is often seen here as some kind of pathology.

Caitlin (4:23): Yeah, it's kind of uncomfortable for people, isn't it?

Alex (4:27): Yes, yes. So the the IFS lens would say that we all have parts, and the degree to which we're troubled in life currently, often is a reflection of what happened to some of our parts when we were when we were younger, essentially, the changes parts of us make to help us get through things when we were children.

Caitlin (4:52): Yeah, and before we go into how parts arise and develop their own stories and ways. Coping as children. I want to backtrack to that overview you gave clients, and just slow it down a bit, because that overview of saying, look, it's totally normal that we have this multiplicity of parts and and those parts all have, in a way, their own different personalities, their own different wants and needs and stories. What kinds of questions arise when you present that initial thesis to your clients?

Alex (5:38): Some people want to know all about it before they experience ifs therapy, that's fine. Other people aren't that bothered. But for either group, it's almost as easy to say, well, listen, what inner conflict would you like to solve? And they might say, I'm pretty anxious. And I say, Well, how about we get to know that anxious part of you? And I'll often just give the person the experience of connecting with a part of themselves, depending on how that goes, you can, you can say quite a lot of explanation. It's surprising. It's really surprising how many people take to it very, very quickly.

Caitlin (6:25): So could you introduce that and really talk us through how you get somebody to connect to a part? For the first time,

Alex (6:34): since this is a torn project, it makes sense to look at something where there are two different opinions, tension around an issue. So a first step, maybe I could invite somebody to get comfortable in your seat and take a couple of deep breaths. Feel the air going deep into your tummy, let all your parts know you're just going to begin to get to know a couple of them in the next few minutes. Bring to mind something that you have been torn about lately. Don't choose something a major thing in your life, anything too overwhelming. This is just a brief exercise to get a taste of ifs, for example, maybe part of you wants to stay in tonight and rest, and another part might want to go out and party something like that small everyday conflict. Begin to notice one side of this tension. Maybe it's maybe it's that one little bit thing that's more urgent or prominent for you. Take a moment to notice how this part shows up for you. Where do you sense it in on or around your body? And maybe there is even an image of this part or you just be, just be aware of the energy of it. So with one part on one side of this tornness, just ask it, what do you want from me? What's your good intention for me? See if anything comes back from it, and if it doesn't, not worry. And then ask if you weren't here doing this job for me, trying to persuade me to do what you'd like me to do. What are you afraid would happen? Maybe, maybe begin to get a sense from from this part of its fear, if it doesn't win the argument with the other part of you, you know that wants the opposite. And then thank that part, whether it shared something or not, if you didn't get anything back that's fine, maybe just make a little mental note to come back to this part later on, but thank that part anyway. Then gently shift your attention to the other part, the part that wants this, this other thing. And again, notice where this one hangs out in or on or around your body, let it know how you feel. It that you're you're aware of it. Ask this one, what do you want for me? Thank it and appreciate it, and whatever comes back then the same questions you asked the first part, what is your good intention for me? And if you are not here urging me to do what you want me to do, what are you afraid would happen? Whatever has whatever has come through, appreciate this part. Finally, invite both parts to take their wives off each other and shift their gates towards you and see what it's like for them. Thank them. Let them know you appreciate them, and then you'll be back at some point to reconnect and to help them, to help them with this decision, with this with this tension, and. When it feels right, when it feels that you've taken the time needed to acknowledge and appreciate these parts, then let them know you'll come back inside to hear more from them again, and then you can take a couple of breaths and bring you back to the outside world. You

Caitlin (10:29): nicely facilitated. Thank you. I hope some of our listeners went through that journey for themselves as you were talking through it, and maybe noticed how it felt to speak to and listen to a couple of parts in turn, and even also to turn those parts towards yourself, rather than to be constantly kind of fighting at each other.

Alex (10:57): Harmony is what emerges from building connections with the parts they can then trust you into listening to them and making that final decision. You've heard you've heard

Caitlin (11:10): both of them. Yeah, there's something reassuring, and they each take a different role.

Alex (11:15): Yes, and one common question I explore with clients is, well, who? Who is it that's getting to know these parts. Some people might say this is their adult self. Some, some people with a more spiritual perspective would say that self and adult is the essence of who I am. It's, it's, it's a spiritual core or an energy which can't be damaged, and it's there. It's there for all the parts.

Caitlin (11:58): And I want to go a little bit deeper into how one can get in touch with that sense of their core, right, their self, this spiritual essence, this kind of this me that is actually in conversation with my parts when we're doing this

Alex (12:17): many clients, when they do something, when they get to know these parts, the parts they they relax. They're they're relieved to know that someone's that someone's there for them. There's a sense of of spaciousness, often and and calm. And that's what many would say, is the self. It's always there in everybody. But when the parts relax naturally, the self, or the the adults, or whatever language one wants to use, these the the essence which, which is always there that the parts relax. And it's a bit, it's a bit like, it's a bit like the sun of the clouds. It's like the clouds moving away from in front of the sun, and then there's a sense of calm.

Caitlin (13:05): I love that you're framing it in this way. It kind of gives us a tangible feeling to look out for, right? The presence that's there that allows the parts to relax and just be heard, and that's what we're talking about as this adult self. I think there's a kind of parallel for the for the parents in the audience and and that would be that from time to time, when we're getting it right, we can as parents, find ourselves in a deep sense of presence with our children, and you feel connected and grounded and caring as a parent. And look, it's fine. We're not all excellent parents at all times, but we do have these moments of real listening and connection and attunement with a child. And for me, there's a parallel there, like that's what's going on internally in this process. It's like I am a present, grounded parent to all of my inner parts

Alex (14:19): beautifully put beautifully, and that is becoming the parent for your inner for your inner parts, your inner system, because, because everything's interwoven inside it. It's a system. It's like a family externally, a mother figure, a father figure, kids, cousins, and there's all sorts going on. It's it's family therapy taken inside.

Caitlin (14:54): I feel we're ready to go that level deeper, and actually, let's begin to. Talk about how these parts begin to form, where they get their ideas about the roles that they have to play, and how they have to satisfy those roles and reduce fears. And, you know, just, just give us a sense of how all that comes about,

Alex (15:18): arguably, when, we're born all these parts in their natural theater, just what we need, joyous, happy boundary setting I want mine not be changed now and in their natural state, parts are probably not burdened with what as adults who might call over the top perfectionism or deep anxiety or uncontrollable rage, none of that's there to that burdened degree. And of course, we're in families, we're in cultures, we're in religions. We become conditioned. And if I was a four year old who brought a picture home from nursery, and showed it to my parents, and they said, Oh, why is the sun blue? It should be yellow. And that little stick figure only has one leg. He should have two legs, darling. This is my parents wanting to improve me and wanting me to do well. But if they were like this a lot I am, I think I might, I might, over time, begin to think, you know what, I can't quite get it right for these two parents of mine, not not conscious. It's almost, it's almost unconscious. And so then a part of me might say, to feel loved by these parents, I've got to be perfect. So at age five or six, a perfectionist part develops within me that that's just working, working, working to get the love and the appreciation and the and the acceptance that I that I long for. And then fast forward four or five decades, and now I'm middle aged man, and I'm working 120 hours a week, and I don't see if I'm family much, and well, I'm not. I'm not happy, maybe, maybe this perfectionist part is has just taken over huge chunks of time in my life and to the point where I don't quite know who I am anymore. So I try therapy, and if it was an ifs therapist, they might say, how about we get to know this perfectionist part of you, because it's pushed everyone else out of the way. So you can just forget relaxing at weekends, getting to know that perfectionist part. When working with an ifs therapist, we would hear what that part wanted for me, where that perfectionist part is afraid will happen if it was not there to guide me forwards in life. And then ultimately, we would become aware of and get to know the five or six year old wounded part who concluded all those years ago that he was not good enough, that he couldn't live up to his parents' expectations and standards, and who has been protected by the perfectionist striving part ever since once this befriending of the parts process is underway, then the need for the perfectionist part to be so demanding it is really lessened, and we can get more harmony back into the system.

Caitlin (18:36): It's really easy to understand in this example, why that part comes to be and why it takes on the role it does. Right? The threat is real as a child, because you need that sense of connection and belonging and love and security from your carers. You're fully dependent on your parents in your family system, or the carers in your family system. So those parts of us are solving for that dependency, no matter what. When you learn, if I don't get something quite right, then I'm going to lose connection, and I'm going to feel disappointment and disapproval from my parents or parental figures, then that part goes you just have to have an eye on getting things exactly right. You you have to do this. This is crucial for your survival. You know that becomes an internalized belief and set of behaviors, and I guess those persist over time, right? And I think in that example, you can see the service that that part gave to that child in the early years, because the next time I'm betting that child came home with a picture with a perfect yellow sun and nicely drawn stick figures, and I. You know, and then that part was doing a good job in terms of parental approval and appreciation,

Alex (20:07): very, very good job. And and that child, or it was me in the example, can't tolerate feeling not good enough as a five or six year old. And it's, it's too much to feel permanently, so we need to adapt. And like you were saying, it's it's completely logical adaptation at the time. And when you fast forward to middle age, that early adaptation has become, become rampant workaholism. That's a different matter, and it's worth questioning this adaptation, but challenging to shift our stories around perfectionism, because our culture endorses it. And now, if I am that person, I see no other way. And when I work on it 20 hours a week, and my CEO says I don't like your quarterly figures, that perfection is part in me, but it spurs me on to work even harder. And maybe, maybe that isn't so helpful, and that part, that part, is keeping me in that feeling of that four or five year old not good enough feeling. I just can't seem to get rid of that, and I can't seem to get things right from my CEO, and that's going to be the emotional turmoil. So the therapy is about getting to know all the parts involved and ultimately helping that four or five year old. The more the more tender, the more vulnerable the wounded feelings that often just sit beneath, beneath that challenging emotional behavior that is on the surface. And in this example, there's there's work to be done with my perfectionist part, but, but ultimately, we have to reach a scared child part once we look for who they are and not for their performance.

Caitlin (22:03): Yeah, I love what you're pointing to there that over time, that perfectionist part grows, and of course, it gets reinforced between the ages of five and 35, and and not only that, there are all these other things happening in that system, right? There are other parts forming around that and around other experiences that this person is having. So give us a flavor of what could be happening along that timeline, right? How does this get a little more complex and build into our many different parts.

Alex (22:46): Staying with our example, the perfectionist part has really pushed me, and maybe I'm maybe I'm running my own company by the age of 35 very successful perfectionism keeps all my vulnerable feelings at bay until it doesn't, and when the CEO gives me bad news about his view of my quarterly figures, I get home on Friday night, and I'll probably develop parts that will kick in when my vulnerable five year old is triggered, and maybe I'll have a drinking part that has made me indulge very heavily over the weekend, or the part that just says, All right, I'm just gonna watch box sets all weekend. And these are the parts that will help us cope with the five or six year old, vulnerable, not good enough feelings, maybe different kinds of parts come to our aid in such a situation. But it could be shopping, food, extreme, exercising, to be honest, almost almost anything. And we often have these parts that ifs would call soothers, distractors, firefighters that so let's say, let's say I have a drinking, a drinking soothe apart that came to the rescue over the weekend. Came to the rescue in order to take that edge off and put those five year old feelings in the background. And come Sunday night, though, I might well think to myself, right? This is, this is a new week. If I knuckle down tomorrow morning, going early, maybe I do 140 hours this week. I reckon I can do those figures again. By the end of the week, I can get the CEO on my side. And guess what? The perfectionist part has just kicked right back into play. And so we're seeing it's a cycle, the cycle of sorts, perfectionism, it's in the driving seat, and then feeling criticized, feeling feeling vulnerable, I guess not, not good enough. And then I need to squash those feelings, because then. Are just intolerable. And my trusty drinking part, or the shopping part, it comes along and it soothes and it distracts, and then that part gets elbowed out of the way as the perfectionist comes back in line. And once you see these patterns in yourself, you can't unsee them, and it's it's beautiful in one's own life to notice the patterns these parts and how how they almost hand the baton over to each other, willingly, willingly or not. But once you're aware of them and you can get to know them, the perfectionist, the drinker, the shopper, and then ultimately, the five year old.

Caitlin (25:50): Yeah, the imagery is really interesting. It sticks with me, this sense of Okay, first being triggered and overwhelmed, and then passing that baton on to the next part. And, you know, it's just some kind of loop. And I'm sure many of us can begin to recognize, you know, I begin to feel this way, and then I go into this other mode and and then maybe I go into another mode, and then I circle back, and so it goes.

Caitlin (26:32): So you mentioned that part of the IFS approach is also about getting to know these parts and getting to know where they've come from, and ultimately healing them. Talk to us about how we begin that healing,

Alex (26:49): staying with that example. There's nothing wrong with doing a perfect job, doing doing a great job, but the perfectionist is burdened, and there's a weight on its shoulders to stop me feeling not good enough, that the five year old feelings all over again at the age of 45 so in therapy, we would begin by getting to know the perfectionist part. The perfectionist would let us know at some point that it's protecting the five year old, and maybe it even thinks that I'm still five or six years old. Then, then we say, well, perfectionist part. What if you could go to that five or six year old feeling of not good enough, and bring some healing to it so that so you don't have to carry that burden of always being, always been perfect, and hearts will often be well up for that because they're they're most likely to be exhausted. They weren't born to carry that burden in that way. So once we go to the five year old and then be with them in a loving in a loving way, the client will literally go back in time in their mind and be with the child, showing the parents the drawing, getting that feedback that had them feeling not good enough, and help them to let go of the emotional pain of some of those experiences, then we might go back to the perfectionist part and say, does it feel like you don't have to work so hard now? Because look at five year old Alex, he is okay now, and the client will be feeling calm, and all those beautiful experiences of self that we mentioned earlier start to come back online, and the perfectionist might go, Yeah, I'll just do a great job every now and then. So through through this process, we have relieved some of the pressure in the system, and therefore maybe, maybe that drinking part or the shopping part that has to step in at times doesn't have to work so hard. Either you're trying to gradually get more and more harmony in that inner world.

Caitlin (29:16): It's like you're lessening the load of that baton that's being passed between parts of ourselves.

Alex (29:23): Yeah, and that perfectionist part feels lighter without the burden of protecting not good enough feelings. The drinking part feels lighter without the burden of blotting out all those vulnerable feelings when when perfectionism isn't quite enough. So maybe it can go out, have fun, have a couple of drinks, without having to blot out the pain in the same way. So every part of the system relaxes. Space, space opens up, and parts become a bit closer to what they were meant to be. The parts. Can help me do a great job and have some fun?

Caitlin (30:04): Yeah, I guess what's going on in this process is that you're you're getting a better sense of yourself, you know, that self that we were talking about before, and as you progress along the therapeutic journey. My My sense is that that self and that core essence, it just grows, it somehow develops a stronger and stronger presence in your in your life over time. Is that accurate? Tell me more. Build on that,

Alex (30:38): and as you get to know and to bring healing to the parts there's there's more calm in the system. It there's more there's more openness. It's easier to be, to be compassionate. Creativity can blossom. A lot of natural things that would normally bubble out when your children look at young children, the creativity, the exuberance, the joy, and you can begin to experience more of that joy of life, the openness, the connection with people. So in our example, maybe after the work, connection becomes less threatening when my perfectionist part doesn't need to get in the way between me and my relationships. Always having to prove myself with with colleagues, maybe I don't feel the need for for constant one upmanship demonstrating that perfect result. So connection with the world around you becomes more and more available, and the world opens up and there there's more color. You're a bit closer to what maybe life is meant to be. I love

Caitlin (31:50): that sense of returning to our natures, returning to how we were as children, as indicative of how we should be facing the world and opening into connection and our environment. You know, we, we sort of shut that bit down a bit as we as we go through life, and we put blinkers on, and it's almost like the therapeutic process you describe gradually brings us back into the open again,

Alex (32:19): exactly, exactly.

Caitlin (32:29): I wonder if we can just transition into helping our listeners now think about how they could use this idea of parts and a connection to their self in their everyday lives. So how can this be accessible for people?

Alex (32:45): It can be very straightforward sometimes, sometimes I might be walking along the street going somewhere, and I feel this anxious feeling under my ribs. So I'll pause, and I'll put my hand there, and I know it's an anxious part. I may not know who in terms of which part of me it is, or where it's from in a recent or distant past, but I might just put my hand there and take a moment and say, I feel you. I really get that you're scared right now, and I might ask that question, what are you worried about? What are you worried is going to happen? And then you might get a flicker, oh, this part of me is a bit daunted by one of the people we're about to meet. It's a bit intimidated. Okay, I get that this person we're about to meet is scaring you a bit. So listen, let me look after what happens. You don't have to just give it that like, like you were saying, being being the parent of that feeling. You'll be amazed at how the parts relax once we pay attention to them. Next up, there's really, there's a really quite useful book called self therapy by Jay early, and that's that's very much how you can do a little bit of ifs on your own. My, my My only caveat would be not going there. If it's a really big issue that you're dealing with or you need to address something, something traumatic, it's it's really helpful to have therapy, container and space and someone to guide you through that.

Caitlin (34:36): Yes, yes. Thank you for saying that so around particularly big events, big feelings and things that tie us back to a real vulnerability or trauma in our childhoods, those are the areas where you know, ideally, you look for the support from a therapist, and we will provide links in the show notes as to. How you can get started in in finding a therapist and and also that there are accessible routes into into therapy as well.

Alex (35:09): Great, great. And there's a lot of that that everyone can learn and start on their on their own, too. And we're all torn all the time in our day to day lives and and our parts are talking to us all the time. And I know there's also some kind of reps at the gym metaphor that you can begin to do this work on your own, giving, giving yourself, practice on little issues with things like, do I choose this outfit or that outfit? Do I go for this meal or that meal? Do I spend? Do I spend more time this weekend on the work I need to do? Or do I allow myself this time to relax and to recruit okay?

Caitlin (36:00): So is there a sort of simple three step, you know, five step Max process that listeners can use would be

Alex (36:10): step step one, identify the two parts. Maybe it's, maybe it's teams of parts, and maybe there's a whole team on each side, when advocating for working all weekend, when advocating for, oh, let's blow everything out, and let's enjoy the sun. Let's have some family time. Let's relax. Identify them, and it's often quite good to find them in your body. And maybe, maybe have some some people have have an image, an image of them. Step two, once, once you've done that, ask two questions of each go to one and ask, What do you want from me? What's your good intention for me in advocating for working all weekend, and if I didn't do that, or if you weren't here telling me, I need to work all weekend, what are you afraid would happen? And then same on the other side, the one who wants to spend the weekend just chilling, what do you want from me? What is your good intention? And if you weren't here advocating for a beautiful, relaxed weekend, what are you afraid would happen step step three is then to invite both of them to be aware of you, let them know that you've heard them both, each side of the polarity around what you do at the weekend. You're not trying to get rid of anyone that they're both. They're both important parts, so you're going to keep listening to them, but ultimately, you are going to make a decision about the weekend having heard both of them, and maybe this space that's already opened up through through the connection, and in that space, sometimes that decision of what to do this weekend, it's not a big deal. It becomes fairly obvious. Maybe it's maybe it's a compromise. Maybe it's, oh, I think we're going to have a weekend off. Or maybe it's, no, there's the deadline coming. We're going on holiday in two weeks. We're going to have to do this but, but no, it's not either one of the parts, grabbing your steering wheel and making that decision for you. And there is a resolution that comes from that, and that's, that's the final step. Step four,

Caitlin (38:52): yes, I love that. So step one is about identifying the parts. Step two, asking their role. You know, what do you want for me? What's your good intention, and what are you afraid would happen if you weren't around doing that? Step three is inviting them to be aware of your of yourself, and noticing whether it can see that spaciousness in in not grabbing the steering wheel, and then finally, step four is kind of opening to that resolution and allowing that self coming forward. So yeah, I guess that's that's what we want our listeners to hear, is that in the end, you're looking for that spaciousness, that kind of relaxation that comes when your inner parts get the message, I've heard you, and I've got this.

Alex (39:50): And once you've seen your parts and are aware of them, you can't, you can't unsee them, which is is a beautiful thing. In my opinion, because then you're building this internal relationship that maybe, maybe you've never had.

Caitlin (40:16): So I'm curious what your guidance would be for us at the torn project in terms of how we can share the resources of ifs and parts work and some of the practices in a way that feels accessible and useful for our audience. Right? These are people who are really either in inner conflict themselves, or maybe they're supporting somebody who's in an inner conflict, or maybe they're practitioners themselves, or people in some kind of caring or supportive profession,

Alex (40:50): and there's a lot out there now. And another book recommendation is by Dick Schwartz, who who founded ifs, and the book is called No Bad parts, and it's a wonderful introduction to this approach, and it includes many self guided exercises and meditations.

Caitlin (41:11): Yes, it's a great book and and one we highlight on our torn Project website under the we love filter on our resources, and we'll link to it in the show notes as well.

Alex (41:23): Oh, great, great. And the Jay early approach I mentioned earlier, it's probably, it's probably quite a good one, a book called self therapy. And there are also many podcasts now that model that should show the model being being done actual demonstrations. And there are some people who use drawing in ifs, or people who use singing in ifs, they they sing their parts. So yeah, there are many creative routes that people can go down depending on what their what their internal systems prefer. And I also, also want to add that this is, this is really useful for people who are in caring professions, just just an awareness and an understanding of parts can can really help, I mean, to have that awareness, you don't have to train to become an ifs therapist, there's, there's a lot of social workers, teachers who were becoming ifs informed, and it just adds breadth and understanding so you don't have to go full on therapy to use some of these skills. And there are more and more trainings in the pipeline for people who aren't going to go on to become therapists.

Caitlin (42:42): Yeah, I think that's really useful and good to know. You know, one of the audiences we've worked with already is trainee medical school students who have to navigate their own inner parts that are oftentimes in conflict over a lot of critical decisions, you know, tough things, navigating life and death situations. Maybe they're in situations where they they feel they may need to whistleblow. They experience these inner conflicts. So I think it's really important as a bigger question and framework for people that they that they work on what's going on inside of us and what's going on inside of all of us. You know, this is, this is present for for anybody that you may be caring for, tending to, and I would like it that there's a sense that we want to bring the many parts within a person to navigating a complex time or decision Exactly.

Alex (43:54): And I'm struck really by the degree to which ifs and torn project work together. A lot of ifs work is dealing with tornness. It's so common, it's lovely to make that connection.

Caitlin (44:11): Yeah, it shows up. You know, to me, it's this, it's this visceral feeling and sensation that that I don't know we experience inside ourselves. You know, I feel torn. And why is it I feel torn? Well, the common language that we hear in our interviews is a part of me wants this and a part of me wants something else. So yeah, there's, there is this really natural fit between ifs and and what we're talking about in the torn project. Thank you so much, Alex. I think, I think this conversation has been just really interesting and valuable and and taken us through a journey that people can go on. We've illustrated with some nice examples and and pointed out a helpful way. Ways that the people might begin to start practicing this way of being with themselves and in this kind of inner relationship with their many parts, and also that connection to the calm and the self and the spaciousness. It's been really beautiful. Thank you so much.

Alex (45:20): Alex Caitlin, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Caitlin (45:25): This podcast may well have left you thinking about your own internal family systems, your own many parts, or indeed, what is the self? If you're interested in knowing more, the show notes offer you not only a transcript of this podcast, but also provide links to everything that we have cited in the podcast, and they will link you to helpful resources on our website, thetornproject.com and please Do follow us on Instagram at the torn project for regular stories, resources and hope for all things inner conflict.

Caitlin (46:17): The Torn Podcast is created by Susan, Caitlinockerton and James. Thank you to our podcast producer Finn Kinsella of Flume Creative, to our music composers Michal, Mikolaj and Bolek Błaszczyk, to our team of actors and to all those who have contributed their lived experiences, specialist knowledge and professional support.